I am not sure where to post this but has anybody here read this book: http://normaneinsteinbook.com/ also here: http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/wilber.asp

"Norman Einstein": The Dis-Integration of Ken Wilber will show you why the community around Wilber is being increasingly called a "cult," even by former founding members of I-I who have seen it first-hand."

I am a newbie in kw studies and this book strikes me as a kind of shock about wilber. But what do you guys think about it? Just plain bitterness from the critics? Jealousy? Misinterpreted? True? Kinda true? Does this matter or not? Old news?  Just some crazy boomeritis?

 Please send some feedback.

.

Hi muggur123,

I heard from this book before. I browsed through the text as far as my short attention span allowed, and my  impression is that this guy (Geoffrey) is really trying too hard. He loses himself in endless details and doesn't seem to get the big picture. Of course I should read all the text before judging, but I'm just not motivated to read it all. I wonder for which target group he 's writing. And then 'Dis-Integration' really sounds hostile. Did he mean 'De-Construction'? Anyway he's far from the brillance of a Derrida or Foucault. Imo the best way of dealing with such critics is to ignore them and that's what I will do.

btw today I bought a cheap Californian red wine (Cabernet Sauvignon) in the supermarket and it's not bad at all. It's no 'Dornfelder', but still...

I can say nothing about the 'cult' phenomenon since I'm relatively new here and then i'm living on a different continent, you know. It would be interesting to hear a statement from someone in the nearer surroundings of  I-I about this.

best,

witz78

Oh, and, If you need a guru to power up your karma, I recommend this one: http://www.thegurupitka.com/ 

 

When i find similar themes in more than a few places, I tend to give the holon, or map in this case,  more consideration.

Witz, I love the Love Guru, and i am quite fond of his yoga poses, i practice daily the posture illustrated central bottom.

Love ta "yoose all."

.

Hi BakerBunny,

good to hear from you. How's your little daughter? I hope she's well.

Hm I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by these similar themes that you find in more than a few places. Mind to clarify?

Central bottom yoga pose - wait a moment - that one is called 'telling mum you're gay'. Ahaha. Funny indeed. (are YOU trying to tell me something!?). Anyway my favorite Yoga Pose is 'No shoes No shirt No nirvana'. Now that's funny, ain't it. Mariska Hargitay, everybody.

witz

Thanks for the reply schalk

But is it not true in some sense? I think there are many people who just swallow everything that Wilber writes, I know I did it at first. Maybe it is a little bit exaggerated saying that I-I is a cult phenomena but sometimes I get a little bit skeptic about what Wilber is doing, specially when he has built this big Integral phenomena. It's hard to change something when you have built something big from it. Like many of his claims are often paradoxical and overstated. But of course he is just human who can make mistakes just as everybody else and be stuck in some egoic pursuits.

I am not undermining Wilber, I think most of his stuff is great. But there are some claims that I would like a little bit more clarification from. Since Wilber is supposed to be this intellectual and rather scientific minded spiritual guy, I would like to see some research from some of his claims. Like meditation which is supposed to accelerate human development, it would be really interesting to see the data that supports this claim.

I agree with you that this Mr. Falk is rather bitter and jealous and not very scientific. But I think it is important that people should have an easy access to the original research, regardless if its electric engineering or meditation. Because the thing I love about I-I's approach to spirituality is it's scientific approach to it, and that means that they should, vaguely, build their claims from some scientific evidence.

.

The basic point is that Falk is an asshole.

His remarks are not well founded and do not make a good impression.

These are just my humble opinions.  I have actually read his stuff.

John R

Maybe I will go back to my Catholic origins of guilt inducing , sexual repression, and I am a worthless sinner belief system. To me thats what the center of gravity most people feel comfortable with.

In my own life I have shared with my so called friends different disciples that have contributed to my well being, yet I get responses like ; o that is a cult, or that is to much money to spend, etc.  Yet these same people continue on with their limited little world .  I give  the Ken Wilbers of the world credit for trying to wake up the masses from their sleep, and what do they get  for their efforts is a bunch of ungratefull remarks . I know I have allowed it to effect my enthuisiasm for transformation, and enlightenment. . Seems to me all they know is entrapment, and have no listening for enlightenment. Only if they only knew who they really are...... Thanks Ken for the contribution you have made to so many of us.

---

Bill Kilburg,

schalk:

</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#006400 size=5>I offer these words in a helpful manner.</FONT> </P> <P> </P>

It's been a while since I read such an arrogant statement. Who do you think you are? Saint Schalk telling everybody what they did wrong? Aww

My basic point is that you are an asshole, Schalk. Your remarks don't make a good impression on me and I especially don't like your aggressive way of bullying others around. These are just my humble opinions. And no, I'm not reading your 'Teal Obama' stuff. You know where you can put your kundu, do you?

vroom vroom! It's the Batcar. Get out of the way.

.

Schalk,

I apologize for calling you an 'asshole'. I used the term as part of a polemic political argument. You know, I'm pretty sure we would wave different flags on election day. And then, as you might have noticed, I quoted john rowan's post who used the word in context with Mr. Schalk pardon Falk. I thought it would be interesting to get the discussion on this thread going on because I think it's not finished yet.

schalk:

I much prefer the courtesy of having an argument or idea presented in an organized and coherent form, even if I think it is wrong or stupid, than getting sprayed in the face with formless backwashed mud. With mud, you try to get your hands on it and it just scrunches all over the place.  

Welcome to the postmodern world. Scrunchy, eh? More often than not, you end up with nothing in your hands . BTW Spirit is present even in formless mud. For a discussion of this, see the 'beauty and spirit' thread somewhere in the Frothy Edge.

schalk:

I don't bully people. Bullying people is when you call them an asshole. What I do is identify what I honestly and sincerely believe to be important issues. And then present them as rawly and honestly as I can so that there can be meaningful discussion. It's a great style, by the way. Good for the soul all around.

You have a green shadow, my friend. Think about it. And whether you have a 'great style' or not is to be decided in an aesthetic discourse and doesn't depend on how yourself see it. And yeah, you ARE bullying people.

schalk:

BakerBunny:

I thought we were talking about Falk's critique of I-I as a cult.

Do you have any thoughts on that? Have you read Falk's critique?

And what in the blooming heck are you talking about when you say that when you find similar themes in more than a few places, you tend to give the holon, or the map in this case, more consideration?

Common courtesy dictates that you not breeze in and toss off an inane comment and the segue into a non sequitur followed by a something I know not what it is.

So, what do you think of what I wrote to Muggur?

That's exactly what I call bullying people around. It's arrogant. It's impolite. You can't do this. Honestly. Don't impose your own ideals onto others. It's no good. All you do is emprisoning others in your dream. You're cutting personal freedom away. Again, this might be a political debate.

schalk:

Tell me how you are not bleeding unhealthy green, by the way. The only time I hear people whine about people "bullying others" with arguments and them telling them where to put their "kundu" without saying anything constructive is when "mean green" has been riled up. Help me out here. Which hierarchy did I mix up? Do you recognize any valid hierarchies?   

Green shadow. See above, dear Saint Schalk. Second tier can acknowledge every first tier color, even green. Can you? BTW I don't know nothing about hierarchies. Ask the Batcar.

I appreciate your compassion and energy (kundu?) with which you engage in discussions. You obviously try to be as AQAL as possible, the best way you can. I can see almost every color in your posts. You're doing well, although you (just like anyone of us, including me) could need some more training in certain developmental lines. :-)

But you know, I am somehow worried about your ongoing posting frenzy this last week. How long can you go on in this way? I know these days are really important for you americans., even historical. But I'm afraid you could 'burn out' if you continue to spread your kundu all over the place. Don't forget to care about yourself. Regenerate. Go for a walk. Eat. Sleep. Meditate. Find your center again. And then, engage in discussion operating from that center.

wishing you well: witz

Oh and there is still no valid statement on the cult-phenomenon of early I-I. Mind to clarify, anyone?

.

Oo Man you really have a BIG Kundu, Schalk.

Let's put it like this: You body-checked me and sent me straight to the ground. I guess that's a touchdown. (I'm not really familiar with american football. hope the terms are right)

At first I thought: "O he was in the navy that's kinda cool. I wonder what Arthur will say (because Arthur/Adastra is always complaining about all these high school students having too much time for spamming the forum). And it's great that he knows napolitean dialect and writes books and does music and maybe we could begin chatting about this and that..."

But then you went on and on and on and... you ran right over me. What can I say? You don't need my opinion, you are an army on your own. You don't need anyone! I mean you seem to have an agenda, right? I bet you will do whatever needs to be done to achieve your goal? That's the impression that I get. And that's kind of ...scary, actually. I mean you make the batcar look like a child's toy!! You seem to believe that the world can be saved in the next 48 hours, but - hey, I don't think that will happen (it would be great, but I am not believing it - simple statistics, you know).

I think it's good to be passionate about things that are worth it. But i don't know if what you are doing is the best way to get a change going.

You are a really charismatic guy. A political talent. As a german, I am always skeptical about this kind of leadership, that's sort of a cultural heritage. Nothing personal.

Uh, my attention span is running out. I have to stop now. Bye,

witz