I would like to discuss some things concerning the use of drugs. First of all I find it very interesting that every Yogi seems to have an issue against the use of drugs. And I wonder why this is, is it a cultural thing? I understand that if you associate your God with an object then you really havn't found God. But Yogi Bhajan, (and I am a student of Kudalini Yoga and my teacher was a student of Yogi Bhajan so this has a strong effect on me), states that use of marijuana one time will effect the grey matter of your brain for the rest of your life. Also he has stated, (and this quote can be found on the net) that the sadhus sitting by the ganges have smoked so much marijuana that they have caused damage permanetly removing them from ever being able to have a spiritual experience. Now I know Rabbi Zalman has spoken for the benefit of marijuana. So whats the real deal here, are these yogi's just full of shit. But is he right about smoking too much. Zalman has said, God entered the drug so satan became the pusher. But I would like to know what the issue is with the pusher. Is it simply that fact that addiction is a road block on the way to true freedom or does smoking too much pot cause alot of damage. My feeling is the the soul is indestructable and is ALWAYS available to anyone. But Yogi Bhajan teaches the same thing yet he states that marijuana can cause permanent damage which prevents a spiritual experience - damage due to blood chemistry being off, glandular system burnt ect. So whats the deal, does more research need to be done, do drugs really have such devastating consequences when used improperly. Like I say how could such a wise man make a claim against permanent damage against too much use and be wrong, I mean either he's right or a really brainwashed yogi when it comes to drugs.....?

I've heard cases made on both sides of this issue.  Krishnamurti, a teacher I respect, avoided drugs and stimulants of all sorts, also claiming that they interfered with the clarity of his awareness.  He loved fine cars and talked about the body as a "vehicle" which needs to be kept in prime, pristine condition.  On the other side of the issue, I've heard people argue that "it's all energy" -- taking a tantric approach, "integrating" the effects of drugs or alcohol, working with and transforming their energy and awareness through various practices.  Or so they claim.  I am not entirely sure what to think of Trungpa Rinpoche, for instance -- whether he was really doing what he said, or if alcohol got the best of him.  It certainly damaged his body, and eventually was the cause of his death. 

I do not use alcohol or any drugs myself, so I am not "invested" in this question, but I've come across studies which do claim that long-term, heavy use of marijuana negatively affect the body and brain function.  I've seen others that say the effects are negligible or nothing to be concerned about.

My choice is to avoid these things, since I have not found them to be necessary for a meaningful spiritual practice, and they do not "give" me anything I need to be happy or functional in life.  I've also seen them hurt people more often than help them. 

But if you are a marijuana user, my advice would be to experiment yourself.  Experiment with what happens if you suspend use for awhile.  Is there any effect, positively or negatively?  Then use it again and check in with yourself again, assessing its effects through an AQAL lens.  If you want to find external evidence for or against it out there, I'm sure you can find plenty of both.  That's why I suggest just taking it in your own hands and finding out what works for you.

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May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

Snakewolf:

Let's say you are in the United States and it is illegal to use marijuana. What are the implications for the moral line development of others if we are out buying a spliff on the black market? What are we telling the world through our behavior about what is OK?

Does our participation in what is illegal activity matter?

As for the emotional development of those we love, what are the implications when a child approaches us and is having a very delicate moment of self-development or emotional transition, and a very nuanced and tuned-in response is called for ... and we are so buzzed we cannot even see what they are going through? Multiply that by several thousand events in a relationship (the typical course for a regular user over a couple of decades, easy) and what kind of relationships and models have we established?

Now, I want to make a point here - you raised some very valid issues about how drugs/marijuana relate to the development of an individual.

And you can see what I did - I brought to your essentially UL inquiry some very valid issues ... that invoke LL isssues. In a sense, what I did was to reframe the context of what you had asked to inquire into. Didn't it sort of feel like I was changing the rules of the topic? I was.

If anyone else who reserves the right to shift perspectives at will cares to comment on this, I hope that Snakewolf will not object.

By the way, I have no idea whether drugs or alcohol have any appreciable impact on the inner development of an individual.

From a social standpoint, Dr. Tim Leary said some very interesting things about the conspiracy to keep us from developing to higher levels through strict laws preventing use of drugs that might open doors to those levels. Alcohol promotes the aims of amber ethnocentric control. Marijuana use leads to departure from those ethnocentric perspectives. I think that what Dr. Leary said on the subject makes a lot of sense.

You spelled out something, Schalk, that I had left implied when I suggested that Snakewolf analyze the effects of marijuana use through an AQAL lens:  look not only at the UL effects, but in all perspective-dimensions (physically, socially/legally, monetarily/economically, culturally/intersubjectively, etc).

Just speaking for myself, when I look at drug use through an AQAL lens, I find more reasons to avoid it than to engage it.  But it's a complex issue, obviously -- and there are pros and cons that could be identified in multiple dimensions.

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May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

 

there are degrees definitely

is having a glass of wine with dinner once or twice a week the same as drinking a bottle every night ?

Well, I say follow your own deepest counsel. Was a time when I was very interested in marijuana. However, if you ask me, it is not the one for spiritual transformation. It stays in your system too long. Long-term use isn't so hot either. Not a life style, or a good one anyway. I don't think it's that deeply transformative either. Useful as a gateway drug.  :)

I don't know any really good realizers who smoked marijuana, does anyone? As far as I know, it is mostly the naga baba types who smoke marijuana, and it doesn't look to me like those fellows are very high on the spiral. In fact some of them may even be at Magenta. A lot of them seem to be at Red, too. They fight with eachother and stuff. Some of them do a lot of really strange things.

 

 

Probably an interesting fellow, but probably not an integral role model either.

 

mm

One of the weird fascinations of marijuana use in America is that you usually have to enter into a criminal conspiracy to use it.

I know that sounds odd, but it is literally true. Say two guys hook up and agree to smoke some chronic. The conspiracy has already been formed the minute any overt act is taken to further the conspiracy in a way that tends to effect the end which is the smoking of the chronic.

So, what happens, and I have seen this over and over, is that when people smoke together, they first have to figure out a place to hide together from society and then they sort of form a circle and each watches the back of the other. You can bring in people from disparate backgrounds and they will enter a phase-specific agreement to protect and care for each other.

And then you start passing the spliff around and that deepens the bond, and everyone feels the buzz kick in around the same time, and the doors start to open ... and that is usually the moment when the redness and magentaness and true lack of depth shows itself, as the portal is avoided and activities take place that solidify mundane low altitude consciousness. Eating, playing with toys, sports, music business.... Over and over.

The ritual and the bonding and the crossing borders in temporary conspiracy and then the momentary liberation from mundane grinding concerns and attachments - altogether not a bad package, but I agree with MonkMonk, it doesn't seem to get anyone anywhere.

And after a couple months of packing the THC in the lungs, the brain starts to grow cotton and no new seedlings can sprout.

Monkmonk.    How clever.  Anyone want to be interesting?    Pattye

Schalk, I'm no longer clear about morality in reference to marijuana, though when I was in the army in the late 60s, I stayed pretty square in my beliefs. Stimulated by your other thread's statement that you were a military counselor for 16 years, I'm remembering that I was chosen to be trial counsel in a courts martial for marijuana use, and I can't remember if it was for distribution as well - I think it may have been.

Now as I think about it, I'm wondering why I was chosen. Perhaps it was because I was known to be pretty straight and moralistic, and I wasn't aware at the time that people like the group CO could see my traits and qualities so easily, that I/we are so transparent, since I didn't know many aspects of myself very well. I also wasn't very aware of the socio-politics of leadership then, and I barely remember the event except to say that I was in over my head with that assigned task.

Snakewolf, As mentioned by others here, I too have come across some fairly tightly-controlled appearing studies that indicate that statistically a smoker is more likely to have atrophy of parts of the brain and of functioning. Each person's chemistry and initial balance of brain functions is probably a little different, and part of the uncertainty about concluding that there is damage may have to do with this variation.  One argument used is that "It brings me more into balance." and maybe for some people it has.

I have a friend who has been a psychologist for many years and he used mj for many years. I don't know if he still does in advancing middle age, though I'm curious - I'll ask him one day. He used it, he said, in a very particular way. He has been exercising very consciously, I'll say, for many years and is quite strongly developed and youthful appearing. If I recall correctly he used to sandwich his smoking between exercise periods, say in a morning, or follow his smoking with a serious exercise period. He felt that he cleared out any harmful aspects of cannabis by burning through it in this way. Suddenly I'm a little more curious about what his thinkng was on this, but I think that he felt that it did something for his focus and his discipline and his pleasure in the experience. I'm sure that there was more to it than what I'm saying.

Pretty different than just getting the munchies and vegging or zoning out into music or other more idle whatnots eh. Good luck.

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Ambo Suno

Another possible way to reframe ambosuno might be ~ are you using a drug to intentionally advance youself in some way, be it, horizonitally or vertically? Or, are you using it to excape to exit the worries and indulge in vital/emotional satisfactions (getting lost in the foods and gaming distractions more easily)? I think there might be a place (speaking here from an UL perspective) that use of drugs in a controlled way (as you say your friend did in exersicing or the like) might be useful and transformtive and awareness expanding for some...but, they are dangerous and ought to be seriously.

Well a few questions come from reading your posts. But the one I would like to address right now is balder, your choice to not use drugs because they are not (and indeed this is absolutely true) necessary for a spiritual experience. Has anyone influenced this decision in yourself? How did you come to this conclusion. I have dealt with the same issue, who needs them if they are dangerous then why risk it? But is the danger simply a fear tactict?

Hi, Snakewolf,

I think there were a number of influences as I was growing up.  An important one, spiritually, was Krishnamurti.  I was aware of other teachers who had different views, but for some reason the way he put it spoke to me.  I also had a number of family members and friends who I saw suffer (in various ways) through use, or over-use, of drugs, and a couple of my friends actually died.  So, that influenced me as well -- though I don't think in a way that was based on fear or scare-tactics.  I interacted with them while they were high, so my perspective on the "effect" of this drug for them was from a 2p perspective, which was different from their momentary 1p perspective. 

One friend -- one of the ones who died -- actually was able to create some extraordinary music while on acid.  But he was able to play it masterfully as well without any drug influence.  When I saw what drugs did to him over the long term -- and what experiences we were able to have, and what music we were able to create together simply by entraining with one another till we "crossed the line" into an altered state, without any help from drugs -- I just thought, What a waste.  He doesn't need these crutches.  The "fear" in this story was his own -- that he couldn't "do it" on his own, that he needed that extra boost, when experience showed he did not.  Maybe emotionally he needed them; but in terms of his skill as a performer, he did not.

Best wishes,

B.

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May the boundless knowledge that time presents and space allows illuminate the native perspectives of your original face.

Also I would like to point out, that this simply isn't about myself, it doesn't matter so much what my personal decision is against the use of psychedelics. But it is for every other kid who has to go through this same process, why should they have to weed all this shit out for themselves. Ya know who wants to do ILP for two years and get some real ground and then start exploring psychedelics and find out your back where your started. Depressed. If Krishnamurti and other Yogi's are correct that is messes with clarity then this is a really important issue. Why would it mess with Krishnamurti's clarity but with Zalman get some air under is wings? Different biochemistry or one was somewhat expecting or afraid that it would mess with clarity. Also I think it's neat to point out in One Taste Ken mentiones that even one glass of wine was enough to pull him out of the witness. Will we eventually grow out of our chemical habits and lifestyles in the future as Yogi Bhajan claims? Why do Drugs?

Snakewolf:

I want to share an observation which might seem to support the use of THC.

One of the moods or insights that seem to go with smoking mj is that we can play with perspectives. We can dance from being fascinated with interior scapes (watching our thoughts) to playing with mutual interior scapes (creating new words and playing with them) to becoming fascinated with individual exteriors (cloud watching anyone?) to marveling in exterior systems (watching groups at a party).

And I think it bears reminding - people who have never smoked a joint are often unbelievably rigid, dogmatic, inflexible, unwilling to play, afraid of joshing about reality, ... and just plain tight asses!

There is an inner courage to allow new visions and to explore new landscapes that comes with the simple sharing of a joint. It is just so so rare to find people who have never touched mj who have that light touch, that playful spirit, that flexibility, that willingness to explore.

What mj tells us is this - right here and now, the very perception of reality can change, which means that post-modern truths about our participation in meaning making are very real.

An mj smoker is not necessarily more moral or more spiritual or more aesthetically refined. But they are almost always less of an asshole, less rigid, less stuck.