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I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

Last post 06-15-2008, 11:34 PM by pattye. 24 replies.
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  •  06-12-2008, 9:53 AM 55268 in reply to 55160

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Pattye:

    Thanks for sharing some great notions. Can I simply address one of them?

    You said: "I will have to belong to the grunge group in this plan.   I want to have the discipline you speak of and I recognize the result of such discipline."

    I remember an incident in the military. A guy was transferring to a new post. He told our commander "I don't want a ceremony or anything special. We'll just get together for some beers and I'll say good bye."

    The commander said something to the effect of: "from your perspective that might work. But, military ceremonies are about more than what the recipient wants or desires. They serve a purpose for everyone. They affirm the respect we have for contributions. Let's think about this from the point of view of the troops. They need a constant reminder of ceremonies and hierarchy and how we do things. Some day they will be in our position. How will they act? They will refer back to how we acted and those will be the traditions in their lives."

    This is a very common thing by the way. The member always wants something casual, a luncheon or beers. And the commander usually has to insist that there be a proper ceremony. And everyone is glad that the ceremony was done.

    A very powerful memory I have: I was living in China. One day I was on a bus and this old man sat down next to me. He must have been 80. He had a little book - it was a German grammar. He asked me in stilted English if I speak German. I said that I had studied a little. We agreed to stop and have a fruit juice at a stand. And we talked about German. He was actually studying German!

    I am glad I met him.

    Obviously he will never become fluent. He does not have the time left in his life or the conditions to do it. But it dawned on me that the very act of studying is in itself the point. It is not about being fluent in German. It is about learning just to learn. It's about meeting foreigners on the street and striking up a conversation. Maybe it's about him making my life a little better in the meeting, not about him learning German.

    I would like to say a few things in general that reflect how I think about this. Please don't take them as my preaching to you or insinuating whether you need to hear this. I just want to make a little speech of general applicability to my life.

    Discipline is about studying and learning. "Disciple." It's about getting a grasp on where we are now, where we are confused or ignorant or ... undisciplined and then seeing the reality of that. The very seeing of it contains value. The consciousness that sees that I make no sense for example is aware of what making sense means. The consciousness that sees a mess is aware of good form. The very awareness of being undisciplined contains the seeds of discipline.

    It's simply about trying. Just trying a little. Not even worrying about mastery or fluency or brilliance or a final resting state of perfection. One small act for itself. As easy as tossing a stone in a pond. And then ... where did these ripples come from?

    And when you show me that you are trying, I will try. And we will try. Locally.

    There is a moment in the learning process when there is a feeling of pain. If I am lifting weights, there comes a moment when my muscle is burning. That is exactly the state where the growth is going to happen.

    Discipline in any area means constantly meeting that pain and recognizing that it is our friend.

    And I might also say that my work or discipline or learning creates the "morphic groove" for my neighbor to do the same thing. Any work we do clears a path through the woods for the next voyager.

  •  06-12-2008, 7:14 PM 55301 in reply to 55268

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Dear schalk:  The stories you tell are the kind I love and  participate in as my real life takes me to Walmart or the grocery store. Random meetings.  This is the latest one and I will try to write it without becoming emotional.  First I want to start with the boy scouts that lost their lives today and the re-actions of those that lived.  I sat and bawled with those children.  The older I get, the more this happens.  It is because I am older and because there is much to touch us to the core.

    I may have cried harder for the boy scouts because of what happened here weeks ago.  Five young boys who had graduated from different highschools here and had already started college at the same and different places came home for the long week end.  One of the parents had given their child a car, I think a BMW that would really

    move. After a party, the five went to a private air space here where people live and shelter their own planes.  They took off at the end of the runway, picked up speed and more speed and then were airborne and crashed into a tree.   All were killed.

    At the first funeral, grandson (Daniel again) was a pall bearer.  The ritual had started and the music and the incense and the friends who were altar boys were already to come through the door and join the congregation (packed from every faith) who were into the ritual, ready to keep that rhythm as planned to the end.  The casket was next with the young pall bearers and before the Priest got thru the door a scream like none I have ever heard came blasting out of the mother who had just seen her boy come thru that door in a casket.   She screamed and screamed and screamed.

    I wonder if she will ever make sense of anything again.   We will never ever forget her, no matter what Father has planned to say, no matter how much the ritual never misses a beat- no matter.  We were changed.  Our knees wobbled.  There was not a dry eye and we were holding that for later.

    This is not a great example in so many ways as to what we can always expect when anyone presents anything.  And in another way it  is a really big example.  Usually,

    people will line up on two side of the speaker.  (In this case your presentation).  The debate will start.  It is a psychological phenomonon (sp).  Happens every time. And that can be a good thing.  This time however, the interuption was so gut wrenching,so authentic and one of those interuptions that will not go un-heard. At the funeral.

    In a way, it feels sometimes that there is no room in Proposals but a tied up tight plan that must be followed and maybe I do not want to learn discipline with such an expert and there are more around, knowing that I will mess up somewhere.  And then I would squelch something not nearly as earthshaking and authenic as that scream but I will squelch something.   I have never researched this kind of thinking so that I can discuss it much differently.  I just know that I will be content to read what you write and not participate freely and authentically.   
    And another personal note is that I am more inclined to lose the discipline I need to live the day in such a way that everything is a prayer without it being some big rule.

    I don't think of it that way but I find for me that If I start "putting my hands on everything"    I begin to pull away from my time alone and quiet and before I know it, I having more drama, more indecision, more confusion that is self inflicted - as if I have just run off from my most dearest Source, my most dependable Need,  my most  Surefire way to really have a good day and recognize the good in the day if I am having a bad one.  And guess what.  I am totally addicted to Inquiry.  I started dropping into mediatation that way.  I have to read before I sleep.  At least until I learned not to. And so there are times when I am glad I feel tougue tied and cannnot participate.  Sometimes I experience the gaps that get longer and longer.  And I depend on my teacher image, my story telling image.  It just gets worse all the time.Not being an Image.  I have learned that in the gaps, the mistakes, the mess-ups is where the real stuff happens.   I have enjoyed Congress so much when they are into the ritual, being polite etc. and then someone like Senaltor Byrd will become so outrageous, you want hang around.  And then there is the other part that bores the hell out of all.     And then there are times when I wish they would fire most of the Boomer Press.  So many rude statements.  Big Bad words- not too much Beauty.

    Chis Matthews,  "I like to pull back the scab"   Go to hell Chris.  And then I change the channel.  So I feel the Beauty you speak of is missing in these times (By the way I thought Hillary was splendid and she made them wait and they trashed her so bad about that. She was moving with her rhythms-knew what she needed to do.)  I am scared I even said that.  No more politics, not now.

    Jokes on me.  No really most of the time, I flow fine but don't worry about me getting disciplined.  Come stand in my shoes and then we will see!   And sometimes it is not nearly as much fun as it would be as it would to learn the discipline of what you are suggesting.  It almost felt insidious to me that you would even suggest that. Me learning some discipline. or Us.But then we do not know each other that well- yet.  We can neglect that big time on line and just make everyone up. Sometimes.   I wil be there when I can and it may work out that I will be there more.

    Lastly:  Have you considered blogging since the subject seems very broad and could go for a long time.  I have not even thought tht through but as someone said -your  speedy response is amazing.   Later - Love Pattye    PS.  My daughter found Daniel sitting on his bed when she came home that day, his face in his hands, tears that seemed would not  stop.  He said, " Mom, I have to go to four more funerals."

  •  06-12-2008, 7:20 PM 55302 in reply to 55301

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    PS   YES YES YES to your point about Rituals vs "Have a Beer"  

    We might need to be careful that we know when to have what.  Getting things like that mixed up really does make a mess of what we hold dear.  Timing.  It seems that we just cannot become identified with.   Oldest son said the other day as he argued with me (like I was not there),  Mom  that is the way I talk, I am a lawyer.   I said that is not who you are.  He did not answer or get upset.  Thankfully.  I am sure they

    are not happy with me at times.   Thankfully,  I don't worry about that anymore. LOL

  •  06-12-2008, 10:16 PM 55309 in reply to 55267

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Schalk, I think, I'll just leave things with what I've already said here - I'm posting this quick comment, now, so that I can tell you that I mean no offense. ambo

    Ambo Suno
  •  06-12-2008, 11:05 PM 55311 in reply to 55301

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Pattye:

    Thanks for sharing that.

    I am not going to give you a bunch of commentary on discipline and the rest of it in the face of your sharing those other matters.

  •  06-13-2008, 10:26 AM 55326 in reply to 55311

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Schalk:  I feel so calm, so heard.   Thank You.  Now I find I may miss your lecture on discipline.  Save that.   Have you by any chance been reading Keagen.  I have read two of his books and another " The Elephant in the Room"  about what is not talked about in staff meetings etc.  And now I have already learned from your writing and would like to have that.  Don't give up.  I am not ignoring you.  And I don't want to make a committment and not follow through.   And I have a way to go with communication with the people around me.   I like the things I have read.  I like what you are saying.  It has been my MO to just read most of the Posts on Integral that seemed over my head in the sense of speaking about them with any intelligence.

    There are times when KW is teaching or writing that I want to say-  Give us an example.  Make a story.  So I can get it all the first time. Other times I get it all with no problem.   I look forward to the day when some of the elementary teachers and parents have written books for the little ones and the middle school ones so I can read them.  There are plenty of Integral people here that have mentioned that subject.   Don't go away.   The kids are using a new word today.   "Sweet"  

    That is what I want to say now since I have been heard.   And ambo has turned his

    beach house around.  That has got to mean something.  Hello beach guy.  Don't you wonder who schalk is.  And where he is from and where he has been.  Our bio page will be changed, I assume when we get all new.  I am glad you are both here.  And I vow and promise not to say things like that too often.   Love Pattye

  •  06-13-2008, 4:37 PM 55366 in reply to 55326

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Pattye: Thank you. Now I feel like the coachman in this old story from the days of Confucius.

     

     

    The Coachman Filled With Pride

     

    One day, in the state of Qi, the minister Yan Zi went out in a coach.

     

    The coach passed by the coachman's house.

     

     The coachman's wife saw her husband driving the coach.

     

    He was sitting on top with a whip and he seemed proud and content.

     

    When the coachman returned home, his wife said, "I'm going to leave you."

     

    The coachman was surprised, he asked, "Why?"

     

    She said, "Yan Zi is the minister.

     

    I saw him riding in your coach.

     

    He looked modest, but you were driving the coach and you looked proud and content.

     

    You seemed to think you were very important.

     

    I cannot live with this."

               

    Later, the coachman changed his attitude.

     

    He became modest.

     

    Yan Zi saw this change and asked the coachman what happened.

    The coachman told him the story.

     

    Yan Zi was happy and decided to promote the coachman to a high office.

  •  06-14-2008, 9:58 PM 55451 in reply to 55366

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Dear schalk:   Sweet.  Did you know that the shadow side of turquoise was discussed some time ago and I think that one perspective was reached and  there may be vocal discussion with Ken on this.   One must not act if he/she is not turquoise or higher (colors change).    So there are times when I think a coachman might want to do justice to his essence and give coachmen everywhere a role model for being a proud coachman with good skills.

    I personally did not think of you as the coachman.  I thought you were already from a high office .  My frustration came from not completely following all the details and knowing I would have to work at that to do so.  But I also wanted you and others to know when I really did get something out of the thread and per-haps added more understanding .   Lo and behold, today I read from "Wherever you go - there you are" about Inquiry and want to send that  later.  And ask questions. I may get involved on some level yet.  About Inquiry.

    Still, what a great story.  I don't know but two men who would even take advice from the wife esp.  "I am leaving you for acting Big" (as youngest grands would say).
    And maybe they wouldn't with a threat like that.  And yet that is just the kind of thing. that would help a spouse grow.  The reason she gave.  I would love to be in a relationship like that.  The straight talk would be a nice start.And the other thing is the country would have to be pretty advanced to even have a couple and a ruler like that.   Where did you get the story?  I am just curious about that part and want to save the story ..   And it seems that this kind of story is priceless- because one can take it different ways.  I find I do not want to lose my connection with you when I feel it is a good thing.  And it seems to me that you live by being a straight talker and want to keep the conversation as civil as possible.   That is why I ask  you if you were reading Keagan.

    As has been discussed before, the newest generation to hit the market place are called millineans (sp)  and they want even the CEO to come to the office in jeans and showed some of them with their blankie and pillow.  (Sixty Min) and having a parade in costume around the office during the day- because they were not going to take life so seriously like their boomer parents.  (Maybe they want to be just as self involved as their mom and dad)  Don't know what happened to the gen-exers.  Must have gotten lost in the shuffle.   I was ready for a change in language and connecting with better communication since five Boomers almost got the best of me.        I won't forget the cast of characters

    you wrote about here.  I can put myself in the place of all of them at one time or another .   Except I don't think I would have divorced you on those grounds.   I have ten grandchildren .  Smile.   Pattye

    "Believing in the Tooth Fairy is easier than trying to figure out how else the money

    gets under your pillow"     from "Really Important Stuff My Kids Have Taught Me"

    by Cynthia Copeland Lewis.

  •  06-15-2008, 12:10 AM 55465 in reply to 55451

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Hi Pattye:

    That story about the coachman I found in a book of old Chinese stories.

    No, I haven't read any of Kegan's works. What are you getting from it?

     

  •  06-15-2008, 11:34 PM 55534 in reply to 55465

    Re: I3 (Integral Inquiry Injunctions)

    Dear schalk,   Will get to answer as soon as I can.   thanks again.   Pattye
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