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Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

Last post 05-16-2008, 2:43 PM by Fangsz. 6 replies.
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  •  04-16-2008, 11:46 PM 46749

    Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

     

     Hello Everyone,

     

     I have a couple of inputs into AQAL theory

     

    The first has to do with the relationship between structure – stages and state-stages.

    There was a time when the higher states such as causal and non dual were merely tacked on top of the structure stages to indicate higher potentials of the human experience. Ken teased them apart in order to indicate that the states are available at all levels ( waking, dreaming, deep sleep for example ). This also helps greatly in realizing why sages can have non dual states and yet unpack them in low structure – blue or orange level application. Part of this new understanding also defines enlightenment as mastery of the highest states and stages available at whichever period of history ie enlightenment evolves even though one of the components of enlightenment is access to a timeless ‘state’ or the participation in that reality which does not evolve. All good so far – in fact great because we are freed from structural prisons drawing their authority from state-experience.

     

    One way of expressing this distinction in AQAL theory is the Wilber – Coombs lattice – essentially a matrix with structures on one axis and states on the other.

     

    Structures

     

         Super Integral      *                     *                       *                       *

     

         Integral                *                     *                       *                       *

           

         Pluralistic             *                     *                       *                       *

     

         Rational               *                     *                       *                       *

     

         Mythic                 *                     *                       *                       *

            

         Magic                   *                     *                       *                       *

     

         Archaic                *                     *                       *                       *

       

                                   Gross             Subtle                Causal         Non dual            Stages

     

    ( from Integral spiritualty p 90 )

     

    This differentiates them but I sense there is a deeper integration between them which a different model might express. For example while they are different it is true that the deeper ‘states’ are more readily available at the higher ‘structures’. The deeper states and structures also both transcend and include the lower or shallower ones.

    Try this representation

     

     

     oops won't paste - will have to put a link here:http://www.simplysacred.com/States&Stages.htm

     

     and might need to open the image in a browser to follow my drift.

     

    We can see that the structures are represented by levels ( not pre-existing planes but developed evolutionary morphic fields ) and the states by spheres.

    The self ( UR) arises in different ways within these different fields ( UL) . It experiences a stable sense of self identity on the levels ( structures ) and different depths of this ‘self’ in the spheres ( states ).

     

    Important paradoxs are solved by this model. At the lowest structures the deeper states are still available but because there are more ‘layers’ to the self they are experienced with less permanence and also through the veil of the lower identity. The experiences of the deeper states at lower structures are peak experiences that only become more or less stable at higher structures. Once the identity becomes stably ‘trans-mental’ then the ‘waking state’ actually exists inside the normal ‘state’ of the self which is subtle. The subtle state is carried into dreaming and the events of the waking day happen ‘inside it’. Once causal identity is stably established in third tier structural stages then that identity can express through the subtle and waking states and stages without losing its essential anchoring in causal.  Thus higher structures and deeper states have an intimate connected relationship.

     

    This model also has application in helping to explain the ‘pre-trans’ experience. Many people associate the soul or subtle state experience with childhood and make ‘mind’ and egoic development the problem because they ‘miss’ the more participatory experience that childhood or a more emotionally oriented identity had access to. If the subtle and causal states are available through interpenetration of the spheres above then it makes sense that the less ‘solid’ or more transparent the identity structure is the more ‘flow through’ from deeper states there will be. Once the ‘self’ emerges into mental development the sense of self identity becomes so strong ( the ego ) that it excludes many of the deeper state experiences. This also explains why many people use drugs, meditation, sex and so forth to break for a little while the hold of the egoic self so that ‘bleed through’ can occur.  There are also many paths that lead to a dissolution of the ego in a vain attempt to get back to a more diffuse experience between the states. As we know the developmental trick is to go trans-mental where the subtle state or soul experience can be found directly rather than filtered through the lower identity. This is also why it is so important that the higher levels of state and structure stages become incorporated into our mental understandings of Kosmos so that children will not have to equate developing the mind with exclusion of the subtle state experience.

     

    Another useful way in which this model can inform understanding is that it helps in the whole emptiness/ form debate. The experience of causal consciousness is more easily and stably obtained at the higher structures but does permeate them all. In the past those who reached the higher ‘states’ through introspection or some other technique did not have the structures available to introduce this state intelligently into the world and so therefore we have had the ‘world-denying’ tendencies of those who are trying to ‘stay causal’. As the structures are being built in consciousness so that the causal states are able to permeate through the subtle and waking then we have an added dimension to collective awakening. While it may take a long time for a significant portion of the population to reach third tier consciousness, as more do they increase the power and potency of the causal ‘state’ through their ‘sangha’. Thus the causal state experience is more available at all structural levels. This also has its dangers of course. The experience of ‘being the one’ interpreted through a red or amber structure stage can have violent consequences. Once again we have the need for an understanding of these processes in order to observe them for what they are and help integrate them into our emerging global culture.

     

    Ok so that’s point one.

     

    Point two involves the whole development of the subtle fields and the process of reincarnation on both the individual and planetary level.

     

    As Ken is currently busy pointing out ( and I look forward to his presentations in Overview and Superview where some of these issues will no doubt be addressed ) post- metaphysics must jettison the idea of pre-existing levels of ‘reality’ which both modernism and postmodernism have deconstructed.

     

    In his “Excerpt G “  on subtle energy fields he attempts to reconstruct the important parts of the great chain without reference to ‘involution’ but as a developmental process. Essentially as forms become more complex so the fields through which they express become more complex. These morphic fields are like probability waves which become Kosmic habits .  They are in effect subtle structures without recourse to ontologically preexisting ‘molds’.

     

    Following this view we have the development in the human evolution as well as the planet of the physical life sphere, the biosphere and the noosphere.

    The issue of reincarnation refers to the survival of some sense of identity in subtle dimensions or fields which are trans-mental. We quite naturally have those states where body mind has been dropped but is there any ‘survival’ of those states when the physical body dies? They would need some structure in order for that to occur and that structure would need to be some form of subtle body. That experience of identity in a subtle body could then have an influence on other subtle levels and states but would not have its own independent bodies of expression unless ‘in incarnation’.. So now we are talking about souls of some description or another. In order to derive souls developmentally we might postulate that as the higher structures develop the sense of self is able to shift its centre of gravity there and thus survive in some way the death of the form.

     

    This of course might work theoretically but talking about the soul is the very thing that postmodernism did away with so I understand that it is necessary first to build a logical structure of development that produces higher subtle structures before talking about what might inhabit them independent of the gross world identification which is still largely in control of our worldviews! In fact in my humble opinion and from my perspective Ken Wilber’s ( and other integralists )  greatest contribution to humanity is his capacity to workably and sustainably reintroduce the human spirit to human consciousness. This involves nothing less than a form of planetary healing. It s like opening a door in the wall for someone who has painted themselves into a corner.

     

    Ok but lets take a breath and go into the reincarnation debate for a moment. Experientially most people who follow a path into the higher structure stages and states become aware of a living community of souls. By this I do not mean the past transmission of awakened consciousness through a specific set of teachings or a tradition. I mean a living community of beings. Now at deeper levels there is no separate identity even of souls so this community is an illusion but it is a deeper illusion that the community of personalities! The experience of the self on its way to realization as the SELF does spend time in these transpersonal dimensions or subtle realities. And the question is whether the subtle experience and identity exists independently.

     

    Another experiential reason for postulating this is the experience that many people have at a certain level of development when they become conscious of capacities and potentials that awaken suddenly. This is also the experience of the ‘higher’ self.  There does seem to be two rather definite and radical transformations  of core identity that have previously been called soul and spirit with associated ‘dark nights’ between them. These could correlate to the subtle and causal selves which have an independent existence. They would not need to be pregiven but could be understood developmentally. Once consciousness developed to a certain level – say subtle - it is able to maintain a form of self identity that can inform subsequent incarnations. This model of states and structures above also lends itself to this idea. A soul then is not pregiven but ‘earned’ or developed as some traditions maintain.

     

    Whether or not reincarnation can be added to a developmental model however there is another consideration that I find fascinating. Holons tetra-arise and there is some debate over what is a holon and what is merely the social aspect of a holon. For example is a nation a holon or really just an aspect of the social side of the human holon. Similarly we might say that the sense of a planetary ‘identity’ is really just a compound social identity.  Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the planet as a whole could be considered as some form of holon – that is Kosmically considered on all levels rather than just as a biosphere or ‘gaia’.

     

    Now let us consider the social environment of such a holon. Statistically it is reasonable to assume that ‘life’ whether guided by random processes or some form of subtle intelligence has also arisen on other planets in our galaxy and if not in the galaxy then in the universe itself. Further lets postulate that life on some planet has developed to a structural level beyond that of the highest level on our planet. And I know that different ‘forms’ that evolve on different planets may have widely different forms of consciousness. But lets say that human consciousness and therefore human ‘enlightenment’ is not the highest form in the Kosmos. Let’s say that previous civilizations have left what Wilber called ‘gossamer tracings on the spiritual mind’ when referring to past sages on earth.  They would not even need to be existing now but only to have existed. Furthermore if we took reincarnation on the human level as a possibility could it also be possible on a planetary level? What would that look like?

     

    Part of this is to point out that if you can rebuild the spiritual traditions from a tetra-arising evolutionary perspective then the door is open to the extension of the concept into other areas such as extra terrestrial intelligence for example. Indeed it might upgrade that whole inquiry. At the moment we have Seti looking for physical signs of intelligent life but as it takes light billions of years to reach us from another galaxy the time/space search area is going to be very small for a very long time. Perhaps the antennas we need to build are on subtle levels and if something like a galactic or universal noosphere exists then we are only likely to become aware of it when our own planetary consciousness is unified via a synthetic and integral approach.

     

    Best

    Bruce Lyon

     

     

  •  04-19-2008, 11:22 PM 47428 in reply to 46749

    Re: Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

    The Highest Mind don't care

    Ichido kuyou eeeee mas


    "Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale
  •  04-19-2008, 11:26 PM 47429 in reply to 47428

    Re: Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

    the language of super states

    nihongo-no-suta-do


    "Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale
  •  04-27-2008, 7:12 PM 48399 in reply to 47429

    Re: Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

    Not exactly the level of dialogue I was looking for - wishing you well on whatever frothy edge you inhabit and please feel free to communicate telepathically in future :)
  •  05-06-2008, 3:23 PM 49468 in reply to 48399

    Re: Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

    Greetings, Bruce, a few quick comments (I hope I'll have time for a more in-depth response later):

    -I really like what you're doing with this theory here.  I think the Wilber-Combs lattice definitely works for what it does, and points out the important truth that a state can be activated from any structure, and then will be interpreted by that structure, but there are also, as you point out, other relationships between states and structures that deserve exploration, as well.  Wilber gets into some of that in Excerpt G, especially with that table about energetic feilds and the structures they support, but it's good to see you're taking it further.

    -One question about the diagram, the general concept makes sense to me, but what makes you put the circles for the states exactly where you put them?  Is that based on any specific research?

    -I like your inquiry into extraterrestrials infuencing our own consciousness, producing a Kosmic Habit or a morphic field that influences our own development without our knowledge.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying, potentially, that these Kosmic Habits or morphic fields are transmitted, essentially, within a subtle energy space, so that's where we might do better looking for signs of extraterrestrial life, rather than in the gross energy space.  One question I'd like to add to that dicussion is, if these Kosmic Habits are transmitted through subtle/dream space, does it really make any difference whether the alien culture that influences us occured in the past, present or future, because in a dream, time becomes increasingly fluid, and one may even experience the perception of being precognizant?  And then further into causal and nondual, which would seem to be the ultimate Source of these things, time is completely irrelevant.  Maybe part of the reason why those hightened states of awareness bring about transformation in structures of consciousness is that Kosmic Habits from all points in time and space (including alien civilizations, and potentially even civilizations from other universes, or civilizations that might have come to be) are semi-accessable through those experiences, and are able to manifest explicitly when we bring that awareness into gross/waking reality in all four quadrants, but, from the perspective of gross/waking reality, that process can only happen gradually, based on the inherent limitations of gross/waking reality itself, which is ultimately an illusion that comes from identification with a dream, though it is a valid illusion because we're all in it together.  As far as what it would actually take to actually communicate with distant civilizations and cultures through those hightened states and energies, it seems like people have been working in spirituality and art to do just that for some time, and it seems high time we got a more scientific look at it as well, as the growth of all lines of intelligence is important for any integral endeavor.  Subtle and causal spaces have not been explored a whole lot in the the UR and LR quadrants, for example.

  •  05-09-2008, 11:32 PM 50072 in reply to 49468

    Re: Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

    Hi Fangsz,

    Thanks for the thoughtful response.

    The state spheres are placed where they are to correspond with 'tiers' and also the old threefold division of body/mind, soul and spirit which is really another division into gross, subtle, causal. Stable subtle consciousness is trans-mental where body/mind has been transcended but is still available as a field of expression "inside' the subtle identity. To the causal self both subtle and gross stages and states become transcended objects. The lattice does not give this perspective.

    As you say and Ken points out the first important distinction is to stop the confusion of states and stages that flows from having them all in a one dimensional vertical model. A three dimensional model however alows us to see the relationship between them which sems to me crucial in the debate about subtle energy fields. In Excerpt G Ken puts forward an evolutionary model which is designed to produce the effects of the pregiven involutionary 'planes' without recourse to the idea of involution. Stages are not pregiven but evolve - accepted. What about states? Do they evolve as well. Certainly the content of them does. Are stages somehow built up from the interaction of human identity over time with the three states of consciousness?

    Lets take for example the experience of the non dual state or its immediate precursor - the witnessing of the universe or Big Mind. Is that experience essentially different between me and you while we are in it? Of course we will interpret it differently once we are contracted back out of it according to our stages but the experience it self is probably transcendent of those distinctions.

    I personally agree with your perspective that time has levels of transcendence and therefore who we will become may have as big a bearing on who we are in the present as who we have been in the past. However part of Ken's job seems to be to present the transcendent truths in such a way as they make sense in the world of becoming as it is now and therefore any theories have to make sense in an evolutionary framework.

    An aside here that relates to your final comment - I wonder if what we call 'materialism' is not just an emphasis on the UR and LR ( or exterior ) quadrants but also an emphasis on the gross state in all quadrants.

    To the issue of ET. The evolutonary framework of post modernism refutes the idea of involution or pregiven ontological realities but embraces development and morphogenic fields and the idea that once something has coalesced in a certain way it is likely to coalesce again in that same way. Then if consciousness has already developed past the human stage somewhere in the universe might not that development set up a morphic resonance influence which would have an effect on our own development. One can't argue with that from a developmental perspective.

    Now you leave the developmental perspective behind by transcending it and including it but  that itself is a developmental perspective that is beyond the growing edge of the scientific materialistic world view. As you say "maybe part of the reason why these heightened states of awareness bring about transformations in structures of consciousness is that Kosmic habits from all points etc..." . I agree and wonder whether in here you have also put your finger on the crucial distinction between states and stages. Perhaps stages belong more to the realm of becoming while states belong more to the realm of Being.

    Development of consciousness or the erotic force maybe the result of the penetration of the infinite into the awareness of the finite.

     

    best

    bruce

  •  05-16-2008, 2:43 PM 50958 in reply to 50072

    Re: Integration of States and Stages, reincarnation and ET

    downunder:

    Development of consciousness or the erotic force maybe the result of the penetration of the infinite into the awareness of the finite.

    I think we're on a similar wavelength here.  That kind of idea is key to a lot of what I've been thinking lately; finite evolution actually expands to greater open itself to the subtleties of the infinte.  What we're doing now as human beings in our own development involves the universe waking up to itself through a very thin experimental layer that has formed over the top (or near the top) of a vast evolutionary history.  One thing I think we have to ask ourselves as that process continues though, as the time-dependent stream of grost to subtle evolution begins to open up to casual and nondual timelessness: what does evolution look like within a more time-transcendent perspective?  Or, as I phrased it in another thread:

    Is evolution, especially when we start getting into it's highest, subtlest emergence that we are currently capable of registering as human beings, essentially linear and chronological, or does it run deeper than our perceived understanding of time, our one-foot-in-front-of-the-other gross-waking conception of the development of our universe, from the Big Bang to dirt to the Wachowski Brothers (Ken always uses Shakespeare for that one); I guess the essential question is: does evolution occur, at a subtler level, with some degree of independence from time?

    I also think I am beggining to see your meaning in putting the state-spheres where you do in the diagram.  One thing I thought of in organizing the subtle sphere in the realm of second teir: all of the human developmental stages (located in the noosphere) exist, according to Ken's table in excerpt G, as morphogenic fields within subtle energy-space, which makes sense, given that subtle relates to the mind and soul, but only second tier can actually take a step back and look at how those subtle morphogenic fields are forming.  In other words, first tier uses the subtle energy-fields in its thinking, but only second tier can perceive how those energy-fields operate, and thus it makes sense to place the subtle sphere around second tier, as it seems like stable second-teir thinking would tend to require stable access to subtler states, even if you're in a gross-waking state most of the time.  It also strikes me as an important distinction that one of the major differences between structures and states is that structures determine which of the morphogenic energy fields you are currently inhabiting, and states deterimine which of those fields you are witnessing or are currently looking at.  For example, a human being in a gross-waking state may have thoughts that are arising in subtle-dream-space, but is not paying any attention to that process, and is instead simply looking at gross-waking phenomena.  States allow as to pay attention to different processes at different times, and this itself may account for much of the fluidity of human development and evolution in general.

    As one last thought, the contemplation of extraterrestrials reminds me of the Stuart Davis song called Universe Communion, the chorus of which goes:

    If a message from a distant sun can reach us

    There is a magic that is waiting and is willing to teach us

    how to suture every soul into one concentric whole

    Earth will find a perfect union

    in the universe communion

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