tamgoddess:

Actually, it will need to be reborn entirely, as there's no going back to the past. I'm glad you are here.

Liz

I am wondering if a whole new platform would help this? Robb mentioned he didn't much like this one (on the other thread.) I said I thought maybe that would help.

At any rate, I am glad you are here too Greg, and everyone who is new and has been around. And it's not like there has been NO activity, and certainly some has been even wonderful. But it used to be that to open the "recent posts" link you would see 50 pages of "Today. Today. Today. 6 mins ago, 3 mins ago, 20 second ago" not only could you not keep up, but the human connection was astounding. But, okay, enough.

Feeling pretty good today.

Tim

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

hmellon:

 In the mean time then, please feel free to email me anything about your concerns about me and/or the forums. 

As Liz and Tim have already been saying I think it's important to make sure that the technological platform allows for effective moderation. The ability to delete posts, and yes delete members are the minimum requirements. Being able to move posts and merge threads are nice bonuses - and in the long run extremely important to a large forum.

The best of Left Quadrant intentions will fail in the absence of Right Quadrant support.

Pelle

---

http://integraleurope.org
http://pelle.gaia.com
http://malmointegral.blogspot.com

tamgoddess:

Pelle, I wish I could muster any enthusiasm for this "plan." It's just the same old thing dressed up in a new outfit. We've been told this before: "This time we mean it! We're going to take care of the forum!" It rings hollow now. The one person who has ever really done that was unceremoniously dumped from the company in an email.

An email. It's still rattling around in my head, how such an organization, filled to the brim with such incredibly evolved human beings, could muster such a pathetic way of telling someone they are not needed. A phone call is actually faster. A simple "Thank you for your devotion to this organization." This was not done for Nomali.  How the hell am I supposed to forget that and just move on with a clean slate?

No. This is not just a moderation problem or a "let's reorganize" problem. This is agency allowed to run rampant. This is a kink in development that needs to be addressed on a deeper level than you can do when you're focused only on changing the world. Regime change begins at home, no?

Every person in a position of making decisions at I-I should call his/her mom before doing anything and ask what she would do.

She'd tell him a thank-you note would be in order, for starters. Basics, people. Communion.

Liz

Much agreement on all of that, especially Nomali's mistreatment - I'm still feeling pretty furious about that.  I've covered that ground in my own way in this post on another thread. 

brick-shitting grin,
arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

hmellon:

Hi everyone,

We are hearing everyone's worries that this is just another band-aid or set up for a broken promise. It's happened before so why should you trust us?  I absolutely agree and I would feel the same way.  But, if I didn't also have some hope, I wouldn't have put myself forward. I'm not dumb enough to say it's going to be different this time. I am saying that we are in this moment, doing our best to listen.

The staff is having a meeting on Monday to go over concerns. In the mean time then, please feel free to email me anything about your concerns about me and/or the forums.  Also, if you would like to be considered for a volunteer moderator position...

I absolutely agree that two hours aren't enough and that specific suggestions are the best way to make things happen.

Hallie

Hi Hallie

Welcome to the Thunderdome.    You've got some pretty big boots to fill, and I wish you well with this.  It sounds from what you've said here and elsewhere like you have energy, enthusiasm and some relevent experience and training which may help you in this endeavor. 

It remains to be seen whether I'll stick around, at least in this form; but I'll be watching regardless.  I'm curious as to what this turn of the spiral will bring.

namaste,
arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

PelleB,

In a democracy, censuring people's voices is undemocratic. You want to censure certain people, certain posts. My God, You Are Playing God with the forums. I thought Sweden was democratic, but maybe you have not learned yet the American form of democracy. The right to free speech is one of the things that make this country great. Like I tell people, if you don't like a book's title, don't read it. If you don't like a movie, don't watch it. If you don't like the music someone else is listening to, listen to your own. Censure is not the answer. I hope the freedom of speech and freedom to practice one's own path of spirituality does not lose its great foundation. That is why America was founded in the first place, and some of my ancestors were part of that process. We all gripe about what our government is doing to the world, acting as God also. But, if you tred on the right of free speech and dishonor those whose spiritual paths may be different than yours, then woe is you, and woe is me!

---

JC
33° 13' N 87° 37' W

jwcargile:

In a democracy, censuring people's voices is undemocratic. You want to censure certain people, certain posts. My God, You Are Playing God with the forums. I thought Sweden was democratic, but maybe you have not learned yet the American form of democracy.

jwcargile,

I believe both Sweden and the US could learn from each other in terms of maintaining a functioning democracy. Personally I prefer the Swedish system considering how the last two presidential elections in the States were handled, but like I said, there are pros and cons with both democratic systems.

 A forum is not a democracy nor should it be so comparing it to a country does not make much sense. What you suggest, that nothing can ever be censored, is the mean green ideal way of handling things and let me tell you this: it does not work. All it takes to sabotage a forum is one troll, one single person. That's just one of the reasons moderators are needed. Obviously there has to be a system of escalating warnings before a person is finally banned from a forum, but it should definitely be there as an option. Deleting the posts of a troll/spammer, merging threads, starting new threads and daughter threads, posting the Road Rules and basic Integral Theory, welcoming new posters, answering questions about the forum and about I-I, etc etc are just some of the tasks of an active and functioning moderator.

I believe this forum deserves that kind of active moderation, and I believe that no turquoise forum can survive without it.

Best wishes,

Pelle

---

http://integraleurope.org
http://pelle.gaia.com
http://malmointegral.blogspot.com

Hi JW,

 

The problem with opinions is that they oft times run contrary to facts; for example what is the true state of affairs regarding speech in the United States? Does any informed person truly hold that speech is free in the sense of being unlimited? What are the facts?

 

Libel and slander laws clearly sanction certain forms of speech, i.e. libelous and slanderous speech is subject to punishment but usually not censorship (prior restraint).

 

Or the cliché-like example of an accepted limit on ‘free speech’ is the yelling of “FIRE” in a crowded theatre.

 

And in a country that has a history of both gun violence and three assassinations of presidents, laws have been enacted to punish those who even threaten the life or well being of the chief executive.

 

Warmly,

 

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

 

 

 

I give up 10 bucks a month, and that's a stretch for me, a student and all.
I do it mainly to learn more about the more mystical aspects of other religions like Christianity, Judaism, etc... Finding transpersonal Zen practitioners isn't hard, but Christian mystics, they are rare. So the clips are interesting.
It's interesting at my Chan meditation center, they have a big board behind the front dest with the names of donors in order from those who gave the most to the least. I never liked that, but I think its also a cultural difference. Charity and resiprosity is completely different in Asian countries, enough so to make Americans not react well.
But, since it is a physical place, the more permanent members help in many different ways, from maning the front desk or cleaning, cooking, etc... That and everything is free, including breakfast, lunch and dinner served to anyone who wants it. Even the stuff that's hand made by monks in Taiwan is free to take, I just leave whatever I think is fair in the donation box.

Part of the problem here is what the Integral theory predicts. According to this theory people at the vanguard of consciousness development in the lay public will tend to be a minimum of middle-class to upper middle class. So people like me with no money are probably considered just cheap or not serious or commited. That's one of my biggest critics in the critical praxis of this theory. Wilber et al. tend to transpose and describe very clearly what is, and then deconstruct from there, without very much critical thought. For example, they give tests to people and notice that the majority of second-teir people live in the U.S. or Western Europe, and are from a certain class, but they don't consider cross-cultural variations in the sampling data, nor emphasize the importance of already living within a certain class which allows a person the time and freedom to pursue a more spiritual life.

Assuming that this ties in with II's business model is too great an assumption for me to make, so who knows what's going on there, and speculation is pointless.
I will say this, to think that much will be affected if II fails is not a grounded fear I think. The information is out there and all of us found it and gravitated towards it and other such material before any interaction with II or this site. It is lonely to understand certain things or to become serious with our real situations, but that's the way it has always been. The comfort lies in the fact that at a certain point we realize that the concept of being seperate or alone is a delusion, and that the few deep human connections you do make are deeper and more fulfilling. We have to ask who is lonely?
There are meditation halls in every decent sized town in the U.S. or Europe, and everywhere in the Orient, so we aren't suffering for a lack of Sanghas of this type. Even in those Sanghas though, people with true understanding are rare, and that's the way it is.

rick

---

"The extreme complexity of man's emotional reactions to life finds necessarily its counterpart in his attitude to death." -Malinowski

Excellent points about the money and class issues, Rick! (And especially ironic, given the wages I-I itself gives out). You should totally start another thread on that. It's actually a pretty big subject.

Pelle, you're a vision of clarity and equanimity. This does need to be a turquoise forum, as it's the face integral presents to the world. I hope you decide to be a volunteer moderator here. Hallie will need you.

I don't think that means that there should be no green forums (what Ken called green-turquoise, as opposed to turquoise-turquoise, in the shadow conference call). Some people here would really benefit from participating in a forum where all were invited and  none excluded, and it may be that eventually that will exist at I-I separate from the moderated forum. The need for inclusion at green is very deep and necessary in order to feel safe. Jwcargile, randomturtle, I deeply respect that, even when it frustrates me. It seems to be in the works to have different forums that are tailored to different mind-sets in that way. We shall see.

Tim, your passion endears you to me no end. I see myself in you, for better and for worse.

Love,
Liz

---

Upgrade to ISC!
http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

tamgoddess:

This does need to be a turquoise forum, as it's the face integral presents to the world.

I disagree with this -although, it depends on what you mean by a turquoise forum.

[BIG NOTE: Okay, oops! I stupidly read that as "does not" need to be a turquoise forum. Sorry!!! But the post can continue none the less.]

If it means: only 'turquoise' people are allowed on this forum -then, yes, that is absurd. (It is also a performative contradiction.)

But if it means : the guiding parameters of this forum must be turquoise - then it would be nothing short of an enormously confused contradiction between theory and practice not to have it be so.

I am preparing something which I believe might help clarify (perhaps even in a "once and for all" fashion) why this is so and why this needs to be so -and, how it can be so.

For now, we simply need to remember that "turquoise" does indeed have its parameters. There are definite and distinct contours to the turquoise probability cloud. And those parameters and probabilities are more encompassing and inclusive than any other level of the same thing yet formed in the Kosmos.

Fact of the matter is, that dozens and dozens and dozens of people left because their sensibilities were excluded.

Green principals -the ones it seems that have been the most dominant in practice and yes, coming from the I-I organizational level itself- will not work either -becasue they exclude all others (including turquoise!)

In fact, why don't I go on now.

Why have the I-I forum governing principals been green?

Well, in fact they have only been half green -and, I might add, half Flatland.

Why?

Ken's Road Rules are turquoise. (And which, we might realize, have distinct parameters.) But that is just the theory, which amounts to: Road Rule= only UR as a document, = LR as a theory.

Present them to all who enter the forum and they've entered the LL.

But without any kind of UL to regulate, guide, SELF-correct and enforce them . . . there simply is no actual holon.

Why? Because this is a failure to realize the holon's structural form. Namely, the Four Quadrants.

A collective holon without an UL/UR is not a collective holon at all. It is not even a holon. It is a collection of holons. Thus, chaos. No SELF (UL)-correcting regulator. The self-correcting principals are there (UR=Road Rules document, LR=Road Rules guidelines), and the people-holons are there (LL= us!) . . . but without an UR the holon is doomed -as history has shown.

Anyway, I'm going to leave it at that for now. But this seems to be the exact complaint everyone that has complained has intuitively been acknowledging.

Even the forum rules posted on the other thread that are basically "no-self/ no-rules" rules have a (at least implied) genuine UL. And that is why they work!

That, will not do here. As we have seen.

This does need to be a turquoise forum. And in order to do that, we need a self/individual (even if it is many people)-regulating the collective holon's UL.

And that UL needs to be turquoise so that everybody can be included.

I am interested to know what you all think.

Peace, Love and Hope,

Tim

 

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

Ooops! Sorry, if anyone has read the last post already, please seem my newly edited note. (I misread you Liz, but that still doesn't change the meaning or point of the post. Actually, it strengthens it. Sorry! I'm such a schmuck.)

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

You're no more schmuck than I am, Tim.

Yes, that is what I meant, that the rules need to be turquoise.

Liz

---

Upgrade to ISC!
http://www.integralinstitute.org/public/static/multispirit.aspx
http://pods.gaia.com/ii

timelody:

the guiding parameters of this forum must be turquoise

Exactly, Tim. And I do believe this is what Liz meant as well.

There are plenty of green spaces available for those who seek them, but almost no turquoise ones. These forums need to be a safe turquoise haven for exploring ideas that are yet far from mainstream. No more hiding because we can see depth, no more hiding because we see and accept growth hierarchies. The turquoise worldspace is still being co-created and the morphogenetic grooves are being laid down. So at the risk of sounding melodramatic these forums are probably more important than many people realize.

---

http://integraleurope.org
http://pelle.gaia.com
http://malmointegral.blogspot.com

Actually, I think it might help us a great deal to not only speak in terms of grooves being laid down, but as well speak of them as being discovered. The "discovery" is our interior journey and experience, and then the laying down is just the exterior form correlative of that.

On another note, sorry for screwing up above. But all that means is that we are all completely agreed.

I wonder if you both might re-read what I wrote though. I do think it makes a difference as to what exactly that means. i.e. it does not mean "only turquoise people are allowed" for that would be blue (and so not turquoise and so endlessly contradictive). By definition, that is exclusive.

Genuine turquoise parameters are the most inclusive and will not discriminate against anybody. However, it will (and must) discriminate against what is outside of turquoise parameters. Letting a spammer run free and at will is outside of turquoise parameters. Those are green (or red) parameters.

We need to discover just what those parameters exactly are. But I think that has already been done. they're there in the Road Rules -at least to some extent. (Perhaps there's more that hasn't been clarified yet.)

But what's missing is a turquoise UL -or any UL for that matter. And because of which, the I-I forums are not a collective holon, but a collection of holons in an ambiguous "we" space -where the "" around "we" are truly accurate here. Meaning, it's implied but not real. Fake, not genuine.

I hope I am making sense. More later.

Tim

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky

tamgoddess:

You're no more schmuck than I am, Tim.

Liz

Yikes! Then I've really got some work to do!

( )

---

"With whom or with what are you in communion at this moment?"
. . ."I?" he replied, almost mechanically. "Why not with anyone or anything."
"You must be a marvel . . . if you are able to continue in that state for long."
-Constantin Stanislavsky