Note to Schalk: I didn't even see your thread down in the 7th circle when I wrote this. Then I saw it when I was admiring my new post. :) We can talk about it in either place, I don't care which. I linked the two most important articles I linked here--the two that changed my mind about this (originally I thought as you had)--on your thread as well.

This is a good choice. Admittedly, in the past, I have focused a little too much on the superficial aspects of Joe Biden: his eccentricities, his gaffes. I think you will see what I mean if you see the video here, although it doesn't contain any blatant gaffes at all, just his general manner of speaking, which is often sarcastic, impatient-sounding, etc.

However, I don't think those faults are important, especially after studying him more deeply in the last few days. He is a strong leader with a lot of experience in foreign policy. He advocated intervention in the Balkans (along with Bill Clinton and other "new Democrats") and also was serious about using military force in Iraq as a last resort--in other words: he is not a knee-jerk Green Democrat or an isolationist. This is just what Obama needs.

There is a good write up on his foreign-policy credentials in today's New York Times.

The other day, rational, open-minded conservative David Brooks also wrote a good column advocating Biden as Obama's VP. Among his arguments: Biden is direct. He will say what he is thinking and feeling. I'm not sure the other candidates considered would have had this capacity.

He also has a good mind, if you ignore the occassional gaffe on the surface. And a good heart, I believe. It is a great choice, perhaps the ideal choice. Hillary Clinton fans should suck it up and vote for Obama/Biden. I see no reason to be against this ticket.

The Clinton camp does have a point, however, when they say the Obama campaign was foolish not to even make a showing of considering Hillary Clinton. They've been so brilliant politically in so many ways, but so horrible on this one issue, the unification of the Democratic party. Perhaps they don't understand just how the Democratic party is divided. Or perhaps they are being emotional about it. At any rate, that is a mistake that could cost them the election, but I hope it doesn't.

For me, this choice answers the questions I have had about Obama.

mm

Obama and Biden

There are few things of more interest to me than close personal relationships; i've been involved with and studying them all my adult life.

In integral terms this subject is usually called a ‘we’ space, which according to KW is a matter of some mystery. And of course there are lots of ways to approach this subject, but my own background of some 40 years includes looking at human potentials, including those of relationships, from an astrological perspective; it's one i sometimes employ for both my own amusement and edification.

For a long time i thought that there was no richer source of possible data extraction about human beings and their possibilities than that from accurate birth data which is needed for an astrological examination. And frankly the only similar thing that i've ever run across is the amazing amount of similar extraction KW has been able to produce using three simple pronouns, I We and It.

But back to the mystery and what an astrological perspective might have to say about yesterday's news; an announcement that Sen. Barack Obama has chosen a fellow senator Joseph Biden to be his running mate in the upcoming election.

Via a first comparative look at their potentials (as seen through an astrological lens) it’s clear that Biden is very much taken with the central aim of the life of Sen. Obama. It wouldn't be an overstatement to say that he has fallen in love with it. Furthermore Biden is most likely to see Obama as a potential partner, almost on the scale with what is commonly called a life partner. But in spite of what appears to be a tendency by Biden of devotion towards Obama both personally and politically, this devotion will not be blind. And if Obama has chosen Biden in part to let Obama know when he is missing the mark, Biden -armed with his innate outspokenness- will clearly be up to the task, much in the same way that Michelle Obama has a similar option with her husband in more personal matters.

But this pair has a formidable task in front of them. As stated earlier the campaign is likely to get nasty, with the opposition ready to pull out all the stops to try to make the election about the shortcomings, both real and imagined, of Obama and company. As a campaigner Biden can be an excellent and relentless counterpuncher, and it's likely that every bit of his skill and considerable resourcefulness will be required in the weeks ahead.

Warmly,

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

Charles in blue; monkmonk in black.

It’s clear that Biden is very much taken with the central aim of the life of Sen. Obama. It wouldn't be an overstatement to say that he has fallen in love with it.

That's a big part of it right there. I think you nailed a very crucial element, and one, I must say, did not hit me right at the start, though it should have. Biden is an Obama adorer. Yes, that's true, and naming Biden as his vp--what could be more storybook than that?

Yes, this is the element that all the others lacked. Bayh, Kaine, Clinton--none of them adored Obama. Bayh? He was a staunch Clinton supporter. Web? He loved his own Scottish-Irish roots. Biden loves Obama. That's it.

Well, I guess you can't blame him . . . unless that was the primary motivation. Hmmm. It's a complicated issue. One thing the pick definitely didn't do was unify the party. Many are calling it bad politics.

But in spite of what appears to be a tendency by Biden of devotion towards Obama both personally and politically, this devotion will not be blind.

Yes, I think you're right there. Biden won't be able to shut up, and Obama might regret on those grounds alone.

Yes, Biden should be a good enough campaigner--as long as he doesn't start looking too eccentric. I think Obama was already cringing a bit in Springfield. That could get worse. The debates will be fun, however, including the VP debate. Biden is probably at better debater than all the rest. I wonder who he will go up against . .

As a campaigner Biden can be an excellent and relentless counterpuncher, and it's likely that every bit of his skill and considerable resourcefulness will be required in the weeks ahead.

Yes, he will be tested for sure. I think he's going to have to stay calm, though. He gets a little excited. I think he has to look more presidential than he has in the past.

Blessings,

mm

Hi MM,

I'm pleased that you got something out of my little mini analysis of the relationship possibilities between Biden and Obama. In some sense i agree with KW that there is a mysterious aspect to the “we” space; in fact i would go so far as to say that there are ‘secret forces’ at work in the attractions and repulsions between one human and another. Part of what i've been up to for several decades is to examine and test various techniques, some of which are quite sophisticated, that look into what integral theory calls ‘typing’; and may prove revelatory into what is usually called Dharma.

>>>Yes, Biden should be a good enough campaigner--as long as he doesn't start looking too eccentric. I think Obama was already cringing a bit in Springfield. That could get worse. The debates will be fun, however, including the VP debate. Biden is probably at better debater than all the rest. I wonder who he will go up against . .<<< 

I remember the summer of 1992 very well. Bill Clinton had just successfully garnered enough votes to ensure his nomination for the presidency, and there was speculation about who he might choose as a running mate; eventually of course he opted for Al Gore. But while the speculation was open my thought was, “If he has real courage he will choose Hillary!” But maybe i was just ahead of my time.

Now the old chess player in me, if asked by the McCain camp, for a preference in choice of running mate who will have to face Joe Biden, it would be Carly Fiorina. She could easily blunt the edge of any Biden frankness, and add an aura of financial and business expertise sorely lacked by McCain, restore some luster to McCain’s maverick image, and importantly act as a living wedge to be driven between the disaffected Hillary supporters and the Democratic nominee; after all from a certain viewpoint both Carly Fiorina and Hillary Clinton can be seen to have been shafted by the (male dominated) establishment. It's very unlikely this will happen, as i doubt that the McCain camp operates quite at this level; any more than did the Clinton camp in 1992.

Warmly,

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02" 

Charles in blue; mm in black.

In fact i would go so far as to say that there are ‘secret forces’ at work in the attractions and repulsions between one human and another.

Yes, I am sure there are a lot of thing going on that we don't understand yet. I think some sophisticated typing systems might shed some light on that, too. I think the typing systems out there are really good and useful, but at the same time I don't find that they have quite nailed it too deeply either.

Now the old chess player in me, if asked by the McCain camp, for a preference in choice of running mate who will have to face Joe Biden, it would be Carly Fiorina.

That's interesting, too. I really don't know much about her. She would help draw away disaffected Clinton supporters for sure. How is she a maverick? I would be surprised, as you would be, if he called on her, though. As far as I know, it's coming down to Tom Ridge, Joe Lieberman, Mitt Romney, and Tim Pawlenty. Am I forgetting anyone? I think anyone else would be a surprise.

Apparently McCain really doesn't like Romney, and Schalk brings up Romney's religion (Mormon), which I actually don't have much of a feel for, that whole issue. But what Romney has going for--in addition to being a good attack dog--is that he grew up in Michigan and his father was governor. If McCain could hold on to Ohio and win Michigan, he would make it very difficult for Obama to put together 270.

Tell me more about Fiorina. I really don't know much about her.

With McCain's age, I think it's especially important that the person be a credible president.

Best,

mm

Hi MM,

Carly Fiorina is currently on friendly enough terms with John McCain to serve as one of his advisers; a status that stems from her term as CEO at Hewlitt-Packard, one of the top 20 corporations in the country. While there she initiated radical changes that have taken time beyond the length of her term to demonstrate their wisdom; in the course of which she sufficiently ruffled the feathers of the ‘old boy network’ at HP that they engineered a coup d'état, resulting in her dismissal.

There are reasons why a Fiorina gambit (a risk-taking chess maneuver) might have some appeal to the McCain camp. In recent years there's been a polarizing in the two main political parties, where each has focused attention around its base. The result of this is a political vacuum in the center. It's likely that whichever campaign most successfully appeals to this center will win the election, as the polarized bases tend to cancel each other out.

Part of this center from my view is occupied by disaffected Hillary supporters; less well recognized is perhaps an equally large number of disaffected Republicans, many of which now call themselves independents. Where i live for example is the congressional district of the former speaker of the house Dennis Hastert. Its status as a longtime Republican stronghold has undergone a revolution of sorts, and in a by-election has sent a Democrat to Congress.

Fiorina it seems to me could appeal to both of these rather sizable groups; and in a close election their votes may prove to be determinative.

In addition a McCain choice of Fiorina would enhance the charm of his maverick status, something that has been tarnished by his moves to the right employed on the way to obtain his party’s nomination.

Warmly,

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

Thank you, Charles. That's an intriguing option. Is she pro-choice?

I think a lot is riding on McCain's running-mate choice right now, partially because of McCain's age. But his choices are so different--a pro-choice candidate who might split the GOP and a conservative who might not win independants.

mm

MM, Charles:

Excellent remarks, both of you.

I have been reminding myself - how the Republican mind works. It is one part football fan, one part businessman, and one part policeman.

That's why I think Kaspan nailed it - Tom Ridge is the logical choice for McCain.

Ridge oozes "no nonsense" and that is the theme of Republican governance these days - few words, action, and not forgetting ones purpose.

Plus, Ridge has inside knowledge of the Homeland Security apparatus which McCain will play up big.

Lieberman is a great statesman, but he is not a classical Republican and cannot be trusted to toe the line, a quality that Republicans insist on. Romney's Mormonism sinks him, pure and simple. Pawlenty doesn't work because he has not been in the thick of the war on terror. Fiorina is really just a lark - do not put any money on that.

Happy Friday Schalk,

>>>Fiorina is really just a lark - do not put any money on that. <<<

No problem. I'm not much of a gambler. But it's a tossup in my mind whether Fiorina or Palin was the greater long shot. My guess is that the McCain camp is feeling the heat, in that they recognize that there is an increasing chance that the Obama phenomena will turn from a groundswell into a tsunami and they're doing what they can to forestall exactly this outcome.

Warmly,

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"

BTW the only person known to me touting Palin's candidacy was Bill Kristol.

Happy Friday to you as well Charles:

Let's be very sober and think this through:

you are saying that the momentum Obama has achieved to date is a groundswell and there is the likelihood that a large number of new supporters will arise sometime in the future to make it a tsunami?

Doesn't this completely ignore the evidence Charles? How exactly do you see this happening?

Isn't it clear that those who support Obama have already made their voices known?

Despite the enormously effective package at the convention, and a very solid speech by Obama, there has been no uptick in the polls? How does this happen?

Charles: let me share with you an anecdote. I live near a community that is quite rich, deeply white, traditionally Democrat to the core, and very activist for green causes. Oh, and it is a very matriarchal green community. Very.  

A recent speaker pointed out an interesting fact: in 2004, he found about 30% of the vehicles in a large public area of this community sporting Kerry stickers. Last week, he went to this same area, found even more vehicles there, and located exactly 3, that is three, Obama bumper stickers.

He attributes this to racism.

I point it out as a naked data point. This should not be the case. This particular community should be jumping for joy about Obama. And they are not. It does not make sense.

This community is going to be all over Palin. Palin is a women. And we are long overdue for a competent, strong, credible American woman in the White House. It doesn't matter if she eats baby seals for lunch. It is about the woman. The oldest slave in the history of the world. The one who has endured more unnecessary shit for longer than anyone can possibly fathom. The one who has kept silent and gotten screwed over time and time again.

This is historical stuff Charles. Mega-historical! Obama-Biden have nothing to match the epochal event of a smart, competent woman one heart beat away from the Presidency!!!

Let me know when the tsunami begins. But, I think you are going to see the waters disappear in a big sink hole starting today. Obama had his chance to bring a woman along on a historical ride, and yet, he chose an old bull from the stables. He blew it.

In his arrogance, he thought his charisma and vision were causing the cheers.

You are going to hear cheering now like you never heard before. Palin is a woman! She represents the best of American womanhood. This took courage and it represents the kind of courageous decisionmaking that we can come to expect in the future.

Hi Schalk,

Hey, i have no problem with a woman being elected to the White House; remember i'm the guy who in 1992 thought that Bill should've picked Hillary as his running mate mostly as a demonstration of his courage. Remember too that i'm the guy that brought the name of Fiorina to this discussion.

But to your larger question of the possibilities of an Obama electoral plurality in November my guess is it's possible that a last-minute shift in the undecided voters could swing his way. It wouldn't be the first time such a thing has happened. Remember too that Americans tend to be a moody sort; sometimes this manifests as something silly like the hula hoop or the pet rock, and sometimes something more serious, like passing on the favorite Tom Dewey by electing Harry Truman, and in extremis something like a  Red-Scare.

The great unknown unquantifiable figure in Obama's case rests with the question of race. One could think of it as the elephant in the room. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that a large number of folks will vote FOR Obama because of his biracial heritage, less clear is the number of people who will vote AGAINST him for the same reason. Racism is not something that folks are likely to volunteer about themselves; which simply adds to the difficulty of making any sort of sound prognostication.

My guess is that there are a large number of American voters who would like to put the whole question of racism behind them. On any deep level this seems to be almost an impossible task; but Obama's candidacy represents an opportunity to at least move forward in this area. Which when added to a large number of disaffected Republicans, who are definitely pissed at the Republican incumbents in Washington for their cronyism, malfeasance, and misfeasance might make a difference.

But the days of speculation will end. And the votes will be cast; but i can't help but hold that it's in everyone's best interests that whoever wins will do so by a plurality sufficient to discount any possible tinkering around the edges due to a dubious vote count.

Warmly,

Charles

88W18'28" 41N58'02"