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Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

Last post 06-26-2008, 1:45 PM by jondavi. 6 replies.
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  •  06-25-2008, 7:00 PM 57889

    Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

    A 'semantically correct' understanding of 'transrational experience', used to describe one level of spiritual contemplation; i.e., 'vision logic',  could be translated into terms that for some might resonate more precisely and more favorably according to their own usage preferences.  We must keep in mind the intent of the writer when the reader attempts to interpret what is written (what did Imus really mean when he said that about 'pacman'?).  What is the context of what is written, and how trained is the 'eye of contemplation' of those who would apply critical thought to a subject that is often beyond the realm of mental speculation? 

    It never ceases to amaze me that a man or a woman can be wearing the finest clothing and be impeccably well-groomed when attending to the preparations required as a prospect whose interest it is to become employed in one profession or another, only to be rejected by the prospective employer because of a small spot on his tie or on her blouse. 

    The critical mind is a wonderful servant, but it is a terrible master.

    How many babies have been tossed out with the bath only because of this very issue?  The count, no doubt, is innumerable; which can lead one to wonder just how much of a brain-drain have certain countries suffered only because of an inablity on the part of those who are holding onto their positions of power and authority to dialogue first by finding what is right about the position of the other and then interject one's own views into the dialogue which are also akin to and compatible with those of the other?

    In what is arguably one of the first classics describing transpersonal experiences, "The Varieties of Religious Experience," by William James, we have a document that is an exploration into the inner depths of the human psyche and written in such a way that every man or woman who has even an inkling of interest in the subject can understand. Granted, we have come a long way since its original publication, and many new understandings have evolved because of it. 

    I've sometimes wondered what William's brother, Henry, who was also a writer of human affairs, most occupied with telling what he saw as truth using fiction as his method of choice, said when he first read William's book. In fact, it could be one hoot of a theatrical play, just the two of them on stage having their own "Dinner with Andre." 


    Henry:  Yes, William, what you have written here is quite remarkable, uncanny in many ways, and most timely to say the least.  However, and please understand my true intent, dear brother, whatever were you thinking when you said that about...oh goodness sake, what was it...oh yes!, the "higamous hogamous" nonsense?  What was that experiment all about?

    William:  Why, Henry, it never was about the words in the first place.

    Henry:  No?  Then, pray tell, what was it about?

    William:  Henry, surely with your European experiences and all of the parlour talk you've no doubt had with the likes of Gertrude Stein, you know what it was about.  Why are you importing those games into our conversation now? 

    Henry:  Importing games?! On my honor, William, this is no game. I swear it isn't. Now I remember!  During the experiment you wrote the words:


    Higamous Hogamous, Women Monogamous;
    Hogamous Higamous, Men are polygamous.


    Henry:  What, for heaven's sake, does that prove?

    William:  Well, one thing that it proves is, for someone with an imagination such as yours, you obviously never learned to contemplate.

    Henry, still not satisfied with his brother's answer, pushed harder.

    Henry:  Oh please, William, what does it really prove, though?
    That men are philanderers who have no ability to make commitments once the relationship is consummated?  From that experiment, are you assuming this to be some 'universal given'? 

    William:  Well, no, not exactly that ... And, yet, it is that as well.

    Henry:  You can't have it both ways, now.  I can't let you have it both ways.  You know it's got to be one or the other. Now which is it?

    William:  Obviously, Henry, you are adamantly opposed to the idea that indeed it CAN be one AND the other.  It can be both a universal 'given' and yet remain within the context of its own historical and cultural framework.  So, relatively speaking, we could declare such tendencies to be conditional laws of behaviour within the context of time, place, and circumstance.


    And, as we know, the rest is indeed history. William James's contribution to the early beginnings of transpersonal psychology will forever be indelibly remembered as one that opened doors of perception for those of us who learned from his work and went on to do other things in a field that is forever evolving.  And whether they ever made the distinction between a Higamous and a Hogamous will never really matter anyway.

    Now please don't pigeon-hole William James as an early representative of the 'green meme'.  Please don't bastardize him as someone who does not belong to the 'developmental elite'.  In the name of that same elite we must forever remember the context within which they were born and the formidable forces with which they fought to get us to where we are today.  Perhaps we are the one's who are stuck in our deluded cognitive minds while those who've come before laugh at our foolish games from a place that truly knows no boundaries.

    The use of the non-sequitur is for comics, clowns, and marketing wizards.  It has no place for a philosophy of Spirit.  To establish a popular base from which one can then attack the views of those whose very support it depended on in the beginning, is tantamount to philosophical sophistry in its most outrageous form.

    In an attempt to create a structural map that can analyze and synthesize information in such a way as to designate its 'proper' place within a holarchy by suggesting that one's own philosophy of life and the 'Kosmos' is the correct view, is likewise tantamount to the presumptuous view that a Neo-Faustian Revival is absolutely correct if only because it is epistemologically based in the teleological view of some absolute creative force of design, proving only that we are desperate to find a way out of this apparently inescapable trap that we've been in for milennia; and, thus, in our desperation, willing to accept one of many world-views upon which civilizations have been built so as to put our minds at ease that now, finally, we have the correct view.  Why has Spirit, after all of this time, made us so special?

     

     

     

     

     

       


    The yoga of light and sound is really only one event. It's the frequency of their vibrations that is different.

  •  06-25-2008, 9:03 PM 57895 in reply to 57889

    Re: Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

    JD:

    The title of the book says it all:  Varieties ... of Religious Experience.

    This was a monumental pronuciamento: there is experience, authentic experience, of a religious nature, that takes a variety of forms. And here are some of them ...

    Quite a seismic event.

    Now the question:

    what aspects of the Integral "hierarchy" seem the most "sophist-icated" in your view?

    Obviously, HJ made no vertical distinctions, no developmental commentaries, on his VORE. So, if Green means flat, and non-hierarchically distinguised, then HJ is just that. But still one we owe an enormous debt to.

    I too often wonder, when I hear calls to change the world, or bring everyone around to our understanding: how privileged we are! Isn't it great to be at the Alpha and Omega of truth, goodness, and beauty?

    But, it's easy to say "let's be skeptical." What are some of the ripest areas?

  •  06-25-2008, 10:32 PM 57898 in reply to 57895

    Re: Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

    "But, it's easy to say "let's be skeptical." What are some of the ripest areas? "

    Please clarify the question, Schalk.  There are too many world-views throughout the unfolding of history for me to attach my allegiance to the view that a revival of the Faustian view is going to solve our problems.  At the very least, it might revive our inclination to want to believe in something; however, this is still a belief and does not represent anything of an absolute nature. 

    AQAL is a valid work of  the utmost importance, for it shows us perhaps for the first time in history how to understand what is going on from All Quadrants, All Levels, All Lines, etc.  AQAL is the truth that imperceptibly validates something that may or may not be true  

     Spiral Dynamics can be seen as another interpretation of the Germanic Faustian world-view, modified by the language of a post-modern world.  The more people who believe in this world-view, the more likely it is to have one massive  pygmalian effect.  Apparently, you have chosen to interpret my post in a way that led you to say that it is nothing more than a skeptical rant.  If so, then this is exactly what happens when sophists attempt to take control of a discussion.  Please spare me the inane mind-game of answering a question with yet another question.  What did the grave-diggers say to each other at the very beginning of Hamlet?   Surely you're not one of the lawyers to whom they were referring.  You're better than that.

    So, you tell me.  What are some of the ripest areas?  (And here I'm not clear as to just what it is you are referring; i.e.,  "ripest areas" of what?)


    The yoga of light and sound is really only one event. It's the frequency of their vibrations that is different.

  •  06-25-2008, 11:22 PM 57900 in reply to 57898

    Re: Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

    Jondavi:

    Uh, what is this Faustian view that represents a danger?

    Isn't that the locus of the topic?

  •  06-26-2008, 9:29 AM 57962 in reply to 57900

    Re: Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

    'Danger' is not what the Faustian world-view necessarily represents. Does the 'Oriental' world-view represent a danger?  Or the Magian view, for that matter.  No.  None of these world-views represent dangers in and of themselves.  They were different world-views that represented primary symbols of organic cultures where the objective expressions within those cultures were in alignment with the subjective nature of the people who made up those cultures.

    One point that was being made is how AQAL was used to validate Spiral Dynamics, and how Spiral Dynamics is based on one of many world-views, namely, the Germanic Faustian, and appears to exploit the Faustian view to corroborate its own model. The AQAL model blends nicely into this particular world-view when we consider the ever-expansive characteristics of both. But what Spiral Dynamics does to validate AQAL, AQAL cannot do for Spiral Dynamics.  Why?  Because a modified Faustian world-view is still a Faustian view that is still a belief system based on an epistemology of teleological design. 

    One critical issue is whether any world-view that originally grew out of the organic soil of a relatively homogeneous society can ever be transplanted into our post-modern world.  Could the Apollonian-Greek, for example, be successfully transplanted without segregating itself from the post-modern megalopolitan culture-at-large?  

    When we look at the Greek-Apollonian world-view as a stand-alone model, we find that it only fits into a period of psychological evolution that is pre-conscious.  Individual consciousness and  conscious inner development never existed for the average Greek citizen if only because the perspective was one that made no distinction between the soul and the body.  For the Greek-Apollonian, physical nature and the body was the soul!  Dualism and the breakdown of unconscious unity with nature had yet to occur within the psyche of Ancient Greece; and, therefore, does not make for a good match to argue the case for AQAL simply because the Apollonian- Greek world-view is not a good example of evolution.

    The real issue for our age is whether or not we can 'grow' our own organic world-view from what we already are today, without having to hack our way into the 21st Century by re-hashing the world-views of the past.


    The yoga of light and sound is really only one event. It's the frequency of their vibrations that is different.

  •  06-26-2008, 11:08 AM 57990 in reply to 57962

    Re: Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

    JonDavi:

    Conratulations for your 'James Bros.' dialogue. (Higamous Hogamous, eh? ;-) I share your will to honor these early Pioneers of Transpersonal Psychology respectively Literature.

    What I had a hard time to understand is what you mean by 'Faustian worldview' and why you think the Spiral Dynamics Model represents an updated version of it. Is it because both see the world of form as ever-expanding, always emerging higher and higher structures? Is this what you mean?

    Interestingly enough, I read a passage by Detlef Linke today (I think I mentioned him before) where he said that Fichte's philosophy had a tendency towards a Faustian worldview (meaning the pact with the devil) that ultimately lead to the assumption that the Absolute was already tamed and in control when it actually was not. Linke then analyzes Thomas Mann's "Dr. Faustus" and comes to the conclusion that Mann didn't see this tendency very well, too. The problem of this (according to Linke) is a failure of taking the 'Other' into account; he then states that this was a factor among others that eventually led to the Desaster of the Nazi Terror Regime and the Lager of Auschwitz.
    (taken from 'Religion as a Risk' by D. Linke, 2003)

    So it seems that the Faustian worldview, and it's updates, are not sufficent anymore to deal with the challenges of 21st century. Does this mean we have to reject using the Spiral Dynamics model? What models have we got that can stand the test of time?

    best,

  •  06-26-2008, 1:45 PM 58031 in reply to 57990

    Re: Transpersonal Pioneers of the 19th Century

    Witz78 ~

    "What I had a hard time to understand is what you mean by 'Faustian worldview' and why you think the Spiral Dynamics Model represents an updated version of it. Is it because both see the world of form as ever-expanding, always emerging higher and higher structures? Is this what you mean?"

    Your reply to this post is a meaningful one, Witz, and deserves an equal reply in kind.  Thank you for sharing your understanding in what is arguably one of the most critical issues of our time.

    To my understanding, the Faustian world-view is the first world-view whose prime symbol is the spiral.  In my view, writers like Goethe, Marlowe, and perhaps the writer that you referenced, Linke, used the story of Dr. Faustus to illustrate a  very critical point regarding their own time, place, and circumstance.

    During a time when artists, scientists, writers, and other creative spirits had to be very cautious about how they exposed what they believed were their insights into truth, they sometimes utilized certain techniques to disguise their true intent.  Satire was used by Voltaire in his story of Candide to challenge the  moral underpinnings of what he saw as a very suppressed society.  Likewise, Goethe used the story of Dr. Faustus to challenge the Church and its own oppressive views of how the world, both mundane and spiritual, worked.  Devices such as the Devil were symbolic of an ascending drive that can be used in the service of man's evolution.  And to maintain some semblance of his own historical context, Goethe wisely characterized this view in the traditional mythic form of the "Devil."

    Since the Church did not and still does not officially believe in evolution (Pierre Teilhard was almost de-frocked for his work as a paleontologist), writers and scientists are careful when it comes to making outright statements that might be too terribly controversial and therefore threaten their own well-being (note what happened to the priest who lambasted Hillary Clinton at Obama's former church.  He failed to use any integrity when attempting to express his wild-haired point-of-view).  

    Your question is indeed spot-on.  And in my post, where that issue is originally raised, there is no suggestion that Spiral Dynamics is to be rejected as a model from which we might draw to describe in more progressive terms the more intricate workings of  psychospiritual evolution.  The only issues that were raised by me are how Spiral Dynamics is based on an epistomology of teleological design, and that while AQAL provides in many ways the best overview of  life from its most microcosmic to its most macrocosmic, it can never prove validty of Spiral Dynamics as a social science if only because Spiral Dynamics is, at bottom, a belief based in the teleological argument for the existence of creative design.

     

    Best to you,

    Jondavi

     

     



     

     


    The yoga of light and sound is really only one event. It's the frequency of their vibrations that is different.

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