What is the highest Holarchy? By the way gentlemen the word is spelled, Holarchy.

 

Does anyone here know?

 

 

 The highest Holarchy is the Solar System. Why? Because the solar system is the reflection of the most basic, as well as most  lofty system of consciousness in being

 

This system by the way is eternal, it has no end, only a beginning, and that beginning is the Sun.

That doesn't make much sense. Can Pluto or Jupiter put a sentance together? Does it even have sensations? No. My cat has more consciousness than Mars.

yogafrog:

That doesn't make much sense. Can Pluto or Jupiter put a sentance together? Does it even have sensations? No. My cat has more consciousness than Mars.

 

 

Does the chemicals in ones brain that make them addicted to dope look at all formidable, in isolation.

 

Remember Yoga, It’s all about perspective.

 

Think about where you are. Go outside at night and look out into the heavens.

Where are you?

What are you looking at?

What perspective are you in?

 

 

What if someone suggested that you are looking out into the soul of someone, From the inside.  

 

The solar system is  one aspect  of the soul of some giant being, and we are microcosms of that being, and we like him have a soul (ar) system inside us.

That’s part of what I am saying.

Each planet is a potential state of consciousness, it is animated by the sun, then it becomes a sun itself, sort of a little sun, that can animate parts of itself, on and on and on and on.

 

What evidence have you got for that? It's very poetic but the biosphere is comprised of simple life forms and the noosphere has more complex consciousness.

yogafrog:

What evidence have you got for that? It's very poetic but the biosphere is comprised of simple life forms and the noosphere has more complex consciousness.

I dont do poetry, Like Rumi, I think it's tripe.

30 plus  years of seeking, and some before that of living.

 

As for evidence, well all I will say is

 

“As above, so below

 

God said to somebody

 

I am right before your eyes

 

 

Just wait for my book

 

“The Ellipse, the Fall and Rise of the Human soul”

 

It’s all in there

 

 

yogafrog:

What evidence have you got for that? It's very poetic but the biosphere is comprised of simple life forms and the noosphere has more complex consciousness.

 

Forget the last response

 

Here’s the truth Yoga

 

When I was a child, I would be lying down on a couch, or sitting it didn’t matter. Often times something would come over me, and all of a sudden I would see, feel, taste in inner vision, massive, unlimited, hugeness, I am talking about galaxies, universes, infinity, and at the same time I would see the reality of singularity, almost an infinitesimal point in space, this would toggled like yin yang in my consciousness for a while, and then it would go away

 

 Later in life I started getting intense gnosis about the reality of the fall and rise of the soul, as well as the texture and meaning of the universe, its future, as we know and see it.

 

 

That’s my evidence!

 

 

Hey Girard, this is a fun and perplexing notion to try and work out. There could indeed be some murky waters here in Wilbers thinking. A) Its turtles all the way up all the way down. (if Wilbers right, maybe hes not, either way his state awareness is greater then mine) B) The matter we speak of in the solar system seems less enlightened then the human mind. (although in another sense perhaps the solar system transcends the human mind and embraces it - what I am thinking of here might be cognized as the subtle body of a ultra-giant-organism thus, the sun could be like nadi/enegry center (or, if this is to strange even a physical body might work here) of a giant super-giant-organism). C) So, Like our human body a conception of energy centers seems to work nice here. There are aspects of our being that are less aware and aspecst that are more aware, depending on where in the universe you are located (where in the super-organism your solar system is situated). That is, the solar system would not be the highest holarchy as A) suggests turtles all the way up; but could plausably in a sense, be higher then the particular human organism---(as this giant organism embraces the human) but, this as Wilber points out, leads to a lot of problems (the mind of the human organism still seems much more complicated then anything else in the known (i.e. rational/centuric) universe, no? Oh, the speculation, how grand!

And you are aware of that only by your complex human consciousness though right? Otherwise it sounds like you are saying "all the planets equal the Divine" (which equates to a manifest Web scenario). You are talking about a realisation in human awareness, yes?

That indeed is good evidence. Of course there is the issue of the Self being a non-falsifiable theory (of you accept it then fine, if you don't accept it well, it's the Self that doesn't accept it anyway, thus proving the Self, it's not open to refute and is a circular argument.)

PuzzlingSelf:

Hey Girard, this is a fun and perplexing notion to try and work out. There could indeed be some murky waters here in Wilbers thinking. A) Its turtles all the way up all the way down. (if Wilbers right, maybe hes not, either way his state awareness is greater then mine) B) The matter we speak of in the solar system seems less enlightened then the human mind. (although in another sense perhaps the solar system transcends the human mind and embraces it - what I am thinking of here might be cognized as the subtle body of a ultra-giant-organism thus, the sun could be like nadi/enegry center (or, if this is to strange even a physical body might work here) of a giant super-giant-organism). C) So, Like our human body a conception of energy centers seems to work nice here. There are aspects of our being that are less aware and aspecst that are more aware, depending on where in the universe you are located (where in the super-organism your solar system is situated). That is, the solar system would not be the highest holarchy as A) suggests turtles all the way up; but could plausably in a sense, be higher then the particular human organism---(as this giant organism embraces the human) but, this as Wilber points out, leads to a lot of problems (the mind of the human organism still seems much more complicated then anything else in the known (i.e. rational/centuric) universe, no? Oh, the speculation, how grand!

 

The Reason why I say the solar system is the Highest Holarchy is because the solar system in this cosmology is the Essence. The essence to make a long story short is one of the three primary structures of our inner being, or soul, the other is known as the Holy Spirit, the third I will not name in this space, at this time.

 

This essence as I have said before is the primary structure that rules ALL of our “states” and stations of consciousness.

 

The Holy Spirit is of a different nature than the essence, and performs a different function. You might say it fuels the essence, and allows it to have various states via the attributes of the Holy Spirit through energy transference.

 

This essence also is the “garden” of paradise related in the western scriptures, Quran and Bible that humans in primordial times as the allegory states “fell” to a debased condition from, for “disobeying” god. That is the reason why we are in a condition that needs: religion, mysticism, philosophy, and other things to bring us to the original state we fell from and then beyond to a permanent station. We are groping for that lost state.

 

The solar system we see everyday is the essence of this huge organism you speak of.

We are microcosms of that huge organism, and indeed we have in our soul

A (soul) ar system identical to that which we see in the macrocosm.

 

Hermes the first spiritual teacher said

 

Ass above, so below

 

 

That is, the solar system would not be the highest holarchy as A) suggests turtles all the way up; but could plausably in a sense, be higher then the particular human organism---(as this giant organism embraces the human) but, this as Wilber points out, leads to a lot of problems (the mind of the human organism still seems much more complicated then anything else in the known (i.e. rational/centuric) universe, no? Oh, the speculation, how grand!

 

The Holy Spirit may be said to be highest Holarchy than the essence, but that is water under the bridge.

 

Your point about highest Holarchy, my original point, may be too complex to really investigate at this time

 

But the other points

 

The giant organism as I see doesn’t embrace the human, the universe works like a mirror. The macrocosm will always produce microcosms of itself that is a cosmic unalterable law.

 

Buddha called this Dharma

 

Dharma= unalterable cosmic law

 

As above, so below

 

As for the mind:

From the standpoint of ordinary unenlightened consciousness, the mind seems complex, but I say that is a delusion.

 

In the cosmology I am supporting the “mind” is a reality deep inside the essence. And because we are at or in unenlightened consciousness, we see the mind as something it is not.

 

We are unenlightened because the essence is corrupted.

 

My claim is that our essence has been corrupted, so we don’t see things clearly until it is uncorrupted.

 

The psycho- spiritual scriptures, western and eastern clearly state this; as well our experience in life testifies to this.

 

All this spiritual stuff, religion, paths, Dharma, is about restoring this essence back to its health, and then we will see clearly what a mind is.

Until then it is like looking at reality behind a veil, and that veil is generated by our wounded essence.

 

We are trapped in this wounded essence; the Darhma is about getting untrapped

 

When that is done, then the essence is drawn back to its original sun, then the light of reality will dawn on the consciousness of man forever.

 

 

One more thing, as regards Wilber’s Holon’s, in the cosmology I support, there is a similar concept, but it is called the holistic self.

 

The universe has evolved humans as a holistic self, via the perfection (balance) of the 6 natures of being; the 7^th nature is the holistic self.

You and I, and everybody else in the world have evolved to this.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi G,

Your latest post grabbed my attention; now i know with certainty that laughter holds and sometimes reveals truth; i will always treasure your quote. "Ass above, so below"

Charles

Yoga, my apologies for not being clear. I was indeed trying to hold Wilber's position while testing its flexibility. So, no i do not think that "all the planets equal the devine" - although, the atoms that make-up the planets have interiority (roughly a creative component and the interiority goes all the way down) and so in this sense the atoms that make up the planets are devine but, the planets/solar system itself would be a less perfect representation of the devine in comparison to the human organism.

(I still will ponder what Girard is saying here. At minimum his line of reasoning is very intresting) - Yoga, what you say about "the Self being a non-falsifiable theory" I cannot see how this directly connects to this debate (and in this case my apologies for my ignorance).

 

Hey PS,

That was just me responding to a comment I initiated and G replied to about evidence, such a tricky subject this 'truth claim' business, especially as Foucault illustrated truth = power (or power = truth), which is an interesting point.

This question is unanswerable. I'd even go so far as to say that it's not a good question, because the idea of holarchy is a perspective or way of describing a relationship between things and/or processes

Check the discussion on "systems: an interpretive approach" for an understanding of the notion of holarchy

Sid Luckett
Cape Town

Anyone that's interested can pick up on this point in the the thread, "Systems: An Interpretive Approach" starting from posting # 48754 on 2008-05-03