agreed

I was supposed to be working on something but I came across this thread and am now hooked.  So I thought I would share my story for what it is worth.  I have a son who is now 10 and who we adopted at birth.  Both is birth mother and his birth grandmother (she was adopted as well) have been diagnosed bipolar.

Now while there is no childhood diagnosis for bipolar it was evident from pre-school that my son was excitable, confronting and challenging. 

I will stop here and say that how I have come to view his condition as that of say a thousand stringed instrument where there are a few (not many in his case) strings that are tuned differently.  Realizing this there are then, again from my perspective, three avenues for addressing this: behavior modification (both his and mine), medication (muffle the discordant strings) and tune the strings.

In the end we have done all three.  We have taken my son to social group learning sessions to really try and help him do simple things like read peoples faces and take social cues.  This is helping him fit in and make friends.  We have had him take batteries of tests to see how he learns and are adjusting his school experience to fit his learning style.

For the last year he has been taking lamictal and it makes all the difference in the world.  I don't think it takes anything away from his life experience but is sure seems to limit the explosive episodes.

Lastly for about 18 months he has been doing bio-feedback from a therapist who specializes in ADD kids.  The first thing we learned is that he is very different from ADD and maybe called a sub type of ADHD.  But more importantly there are biorhythms at certain frequencies that are way out of whack.  And through this process the goal is and the success has been to get those in tune.

How well is all this, ask me in 5-8 years when the hormones and life changes hit, but right now it is world better then ever.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in.

keeser, this is inspiring, how you all have looked at and managed this situation. Thanks for sharing it.  ambo

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Ambo Suno

Your welcome nothingness and emersod. I'll continue to wag my tongue until it falls off, or until I decide that I need something to chew on and eat it.

egg

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Something does not become real by talking ABOUT it, it becomes real by being it; only then does that possibility exist in physical reality. So live your life as a being of integrity; your words and actions as one.

Hi Livingegg,

What a great thread on bipolar and good to read another of your interesting posts. We previously met on another discussion od panic and anxiety where I introduced you to the wonderful bokk by Claire Weekes.

I have coached some depressed and bipolar individuals and both I and they have found the work of Joe Griffin and Ivan Tyrrell to be really useful at explaining the route cause of depression and Bipolar.

The basis of their thesis is that ALL mental illness results from us not having some of our needs (or what they refer to as "HumanGivens") met these human needs are:

THE HUMAN GIVENS/ NEEDS

 

These are the things we need in life in order to be emotionally balanced.

 

1.      Security- a safe territory / environment to live and work in.

2.      Attention- giving it to and receiving it from others.

3.      Sense of resilience/ autonomy/ control over your life.

4.      Being emotionally connected to others.

5.      Being part of a wider community.

6.      Friendship and intimacy.

7.      Sense of status within ones social grouping.

8.      Sense of competence/ achievement.

9.      Meaning and purpose (comes from being stretched physically and mentally)

They also say that we are provided with certain resources to meet these needs. These include:

HUMAN RESOURCES TO MEET THESE NEEDS

 

Nature has provided us with the equipment to meet these needs

 

1. A long term memory- we can learn new things.
2. The ability to build rapport and connect with others.
3. Imagination- so we can look for different interpretations/ meanings for events.
4. A conscious mind that can check our emotions, question, analyse, plan.
5. The ability to “know,” subconsciously, if something is right, true for us.
6. An observing self- so we can step back and look at ourselves, responses, logic.
7. A dreaming brain. This allows us to defuse emotionally arising expectations that have not been acted out the previous day.

In relation to this last point 7, Joe has carried out some amazing research on the way our bodies use REM sleep to defuse emotional arousal that we have been unable to deal with appropriately during the previous day. The clinical outcome is that if we are seriously aroused today, we have excessive REM sleep tonight (Too much Dreaming). As REM sleep is not restorative, we wake the next dat, in spite of 12 hors sleep, still tired, and so the cycle continues. We are even more aroused today becaus e we are tired, incompetent, get little done, feel angry, guilty, etc and then tonight we will dream even more, trying to resolve the arousal.

Eventually we become depressed, anxious addicted etc.

 

You can find out more about his work on www.mindfields.org . His current book, and he has many is the fastest selling book on Depression ever on amazon.. It is called: "Overcoming depression fast". There is a section in the book on Bipolar. He has many clients who can control their Bipolar without drugs by ensuring that their "Human Givens " (needs) are met. His definitive book is called "Human Givens" which includes his research and a working hypothetical model of the evolutionary nature of REM sleep re emotional and thus mental wellbeing.

I hope that some of you will find this useful.

Des

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Dr Des Rice
Executive and Life Coach,
29 Ravenhill Park,
Belfast BT60DE
Tel 00442890598381
E- mail des@transformyourworld.co.uk
skype desrice130
Website www.transformyourworld.co.uk

The link in the previous post should have read www.mindfields.org.uk . Apologies.

 I am rather proud of the fact that Joe is, like myself, an Irish guy. I hope that has not unduly influenced my objectivity re his competence!

I have done a number of his workshops and they are very useful for professionals and sufferers.We are to do a joint workshop next May for The UK veterinary profession on "Happiness". This is part of a campaign to help the veterinary profession to deal with the very high incidence of depression and suicide among its members.

Des

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Dr Des Rice
Executive and Life Coach,
29 Ravenhill Park,
Belfast BT60DE
Tel 00442890598381
E- mail des@transformyourworld.co.uk
skype desrice130
Website www.transformyourworld.co.uk

hey all, I'd like to hear your input on some new videos posted by sean on youtube. definitly watch "the vomit theory", "DSM4 says...", and "how to heal mania part 1 and 2" so let me know what you think of these insights because i'm still debating whether or not Ill be able to undergo this process in the future. thanks
-chris



http://www.youtube.com/bipolarorwakingup

Hi, chris - I'm feeling short of time at the moment, but I wanted to let you know that I see this post and intend to share with you my sense of these later. In a sentence, again, I like him and the bold exploration that he's digging into. I wish him well and care, ambo

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Ambo Suno

Hi Chris - It's been a few days since I watched these two videos, but my memory of a few things stays with me. If I mis-characterize something please correct me.

At a glance, it seems to me from my lay perspective that the process as I understand it from this little bit presented would be enriching. You may know better than anyone else whether you are ready or not - you have to be the captain of that ship that sails into the potential Bermuda triangle. What could go wrong? As I worse case scenario, I guess you could succeed in killing yourself, despite the apparent great care that they take, to be present, supportive and safe at all times. I suppose that you could go irretrievably around the bend of insanity, but I really can't imagine that myself for you, from how you have engaged in dialogue here - it is my impression that you have a lot of inner resources and strengths. You may not re-interface with your current world in the same way that you do now. That could imaginably feel like a severe loss to be grieved -- but perhaps celebrated. There could be a long period of digestion and integration of the experience, and you might want to be sure that you had ongoing support for that. I'm not recommending - I'm just imagining from my very biased and relatively uninformed impressions of you, the process, and "reality".

As to content of these video snippetts, first, I think that though he's probably accurate about the particular passages that he's referring to in the DSM, he gives an emphasis that maybe characterizes most "mood disorder" or "bipolar"ity as a spiritual condition. This may be a good and valid way to look at "psychopathology" and life expression of all sorts. By drawing from the DSMIV I think that he is trying to draw support from a document that only is barely acknowledging what he is saying. So this argument based specifically on the DSM seems a little selective and therefore disproportionate or skewing of the DSM's  inclusion of some skepticism about pathologizing spiritual or religious experience. Something like that. I'm still glad that he made the comment and referred to these words, despite my feeling a little confused by it. (My confusion/disonnance for sure.)


I think that "vomit theory" has some intuitive merit. Vomit process is of course metaphoric here. It's a physiological, gut resonnating metaphor, that probably has plenty of utility and accuracy. Without going into the particulars, don't we know right away from an integral perspective that it is partial. It's a theory, if we can call it that, that approaches a complex subject, difficulty in living and healthy, life-enhancing change through a limited vantage point. I think that in the 60's, 70's, and 80's (and maybe other times since they don't require high level cognitive elaboration - they are gut level) these physiological metaphors were more prevalent. Gestalt psychotherapy in particular liked to use physiological language. Introjection (like swallowing as a chunk or whole) was and is a mechanistic word used to describe how we take in  impressions, points of view, scripts and such. Vomiting was used sometimes to mean catharsis, to eliminate something from inside. Vomiting of this sort may have come into question along the way as it was noticed that sometimes people "vomit all over" others, make others toxic - I suppose that this was a recognition that there was a LLQ, others that were affected by this. (In the situation of this process you are looking at, it seems that the support  people and facilitators are ready for vomit in their neighborhood.) Also Catharsis was questioned as "not working" or only in some contexts being helpful to bring about healthy change. It has been wondered and researched as to whether catharsis of feelings, like anger for example, wasn't also simultaneously reinforcing the original pattern - that an angry person might get satisying practice at being angry and having the anger pump primed (for another physical metaphor). But I think that the reality of benefit from catharsis, from vomiting is very contextual, and seems that these people may have put it in a facilitative context - probably a long story to look at how.

The Reichian work that was more excitingly being noticed during those decades, looked a lot at bio-energetic processes. I'm thinking of Chuck Kelly's "Radix" for the moment, which looked a lot at how an organism expresses life energy, including the primary libidinal energy. There is an intuitively understandable modeling of the expansion and contraction cycles within all organisms and maybe more of nature. Human sexuality was thought to be the prototypic energy expression. (Someone please correct me, if I'm getting this wrong.) In that work, there are felt contractions particularly in the core/trunk that are orgasm-like, and you may have noticed that in some part of that process the convulsive ejaculation of energy is reminiscent of vomiting - smile - but of course quite different.

In a lot of intense psycho-somatic work vomiting happens with the intensity of experience. Many exudates flow. Waste paper baskets, boxes of tissues, and towels are consumed as the stuff inside comes out. This is a powerful and reality based metaphor.

Though I'm probably making some big leaps here, one can see and feel why vomit theory would resonnate with us at our very core. Get rid of that what's inside. Get rid of what has been introjected. Let an emotionally cathartic experience eliminate that which has been contained/retained toxically within.

So, though catharsis and vomiting out unhealthy patterns would not be the language or favorite mode or process of say, the Dalai Lama - his being more often self-discipline and basic virtues, like compassion - there are so many views of how change comes about, all of which would be accounted for in some way under an integral sky. This way sounds potent to me and I'm imagining that there are probably many versions and contexts of bipolarity and people that would benefit from this. Since you seem to be so interested in this, drawn to it - you may be someone who will explore it more fully, experientially. I am drawn to that. I like that she got in the shower for that person, and I respect that she wore her clothes. I think it was bold that they blocked the 16th story windows and doors, and didn't freak out and cancel the process.

Though I've spent some time with Stan Grof in workshop settings some time ago, I don't remember his comments about "spiritual emergencies" and the network, for sure. My sense was that he did not think that all instances of apparent psychosis or manic/depressive crises were to be considered as spiritual or psychospiritual emergencies; some were better dealt with conventionally as psychological crises. I'm not sure of his language. This fellow in the videos sounded to me at first listen through as though he were generalizing to all bipolar crises, as though he were drawing support from Stan, though Stan may not agree with all of his applications. Of course I don't really know what this man is thinking, nor Stan's full response to it. My wild guess is that Stan would be mostly supportive of his approach and his passion.

It seems that compassion and other fine virtues may be involved, here, along with the fuller realities of motivation that might possibly move them. I wouldn't mind going down to his area and having that kind of generous and encompassing support for me, as I strip away various of my messy patterns from pre-natal, infancy, and on up. Wish I could pull it off easily, now.

What do you think? Thanks for bringing this interesting topic.

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Ambo Suno

I think your input is great and comrehensive, thank you for it I love hearing new perspectives.

Life is still no worth living, coriander is always red, and maybe red corriander is still worth earthing.

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"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

hey all, heres an email sean sent to ambosuno, interesting reply.



Hi! I`m the guy in the `bipolar or waking up' videos. I read some of your
comments on Chris` thread at the Integral Institute and wanted to respond to
a question you had. I think I need to be a paying member to post on the
thread, that`s why I`m sending the e-mail. Feel free to post this, if you
want.



Regarding Dr. Grof`s work, my experience was so close to what he described
in his book, The Stormy Search for Self, that I immediately had a Wow!
moment, as in, "I finally found someone that understands what happened to
me".



Never for a moment did it ever cross my mind that my experience was anything
but a spiritual one. I never thought of myself as mentally ill for a second,
so Grof`s work was a HUGE confirmation.



Fast-forward 10 years, and I see a family member with very similar symptoms,
but she is younger, and her parents take her to a psychiatrist, who
immediately medicates her. A few months later, she gets the bipolar
diagnoses.

I start researching the difference between my somewhat rare sensory
experience and that of the millions of people diagnosed with bipolar mania
every year. People start e-mailing me, based on My Story on YouTube.

Eventually, I realize that the experience of `Spiritual Emergency` that I
had, and that of the vast majority of people in Bipolar Mania are very
similar. And yet, I see it as a huge gift to my life, and everyone else,
every bipolar teenager, like Chris is medicated? What the fuck?!

So, in answer to your question of whether or not Dr.Grof would support my
use of his work:

In the end, while I heavily rely on Grof`s work for my thinking, I honestly
don`t think Dr.Grof or Dr.David Lukoff or even Ken Wilber for that matter
have gone far enough down the path of interpreting bipolar mania as a
spiritual experience.



While I love their work and borrow heavily from it, they all draw lines
between what is spiritual (the mostly positive, altered state experiences)
and what is somehow destructive (the more negative experiences of paranoia,
strong hallucinations and other indicators of deep fear). In a practical
sense, what this comes down to is telling some people who have had
experiences of insanity that they will recover (because they have had
Spiritual Emergencies), but for others, I`m sorry, but you will not and need
medication for ever (mental illness).



Why are we giving up so easily? Why do we need to draw such condemning
lines. Like I said in one of my videos, if it`s somebody I know, someone in
my family, I would NEVER give up on them, and I don`t care how crazy they
get.


Sean

and mcenter your still talkin in codes i dont follow

old thread but great new video by the guy who does the bipolar vs. spiritual awakening videos. It's the most simplified talk of spiral dynamics I have ever seen, and it has Ken in it as a south park character. sweet. But what I'm really looking forward to are the follow up videos of how all the different stages view bipolar disorder and what needs to happen for some positive change in that area. enjoy. - Chris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6mMb83Mp7U