rkrkrk- you wrote

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Both the blue gods of yore and the orange gods of glistening skyscrappers amidst crushing poverty are equally to blame for this one..............not green (and higher) liberals who have never had a chance, yet, to call (or even significantly influence) the shots..........but the times they are a changin'...........I hope, pray and work so they get a chance before the next predictable, preventable great war; but if not.........it ultimately does not matter...........for their turn will certainly then come afterwards...........so mankind can continue to evolve.........

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I quite agree with your putting a lot of blame on blue and especially on the unhealthy neo-con 19th century imperialist orange power blunders and orange greed and desire for oil and strategic hegemony in the mid-east by Cheney, Addigton, Perle, Wolfowitz, Kristol et al, who seem in their hyper-individualistic neo-con ideology to be ignorant of mid-east culture, society and history thereof, esp. of Iraq's, not to mention the greedy short-sighted "globalism" which is concentrating wealth at the very top, and gives not much of a damn about other social/cultural/eco/health and happiness Planetary values and concerns. I'm a liberal progressive highly critical of these policies.

My point is green (meaning the liberal/progressive wing of the Democrats in the USA here and now) will not have a chance to take charge unless it gives up it relativistic pluralism and graduates to integral pluralism (maybe that means graduating to second tier.) Green eco-values and communitarian values are desperately needed now, but, in addition, so is second-tier INTEGRAL pluralism to face the realities of fundamenalism - Islamic (more dangerous) and Christian (less so, but reactionary, nonetheless).

I'm green/yellow/turquoise and beyond (on good days), and I think until we graduate to integral pluralism,we will be seen as weak-minded by too many orange and blue and won't get elected for years and years - when it may be too late. I "skipped" orange, for cultural reasons and some personal shadows (such as guilt about my personal power and self-esteem issues), having been a hippie baby-boomer who saw the value of green communitarianism and planetary eco-values, (and actually intuited the health of the spiral, courtesy of thinkers such as de Chardin and Rudhyar, etc, etc.) in college in the late sixties; consequently, I haven't made a pile of money, nor, more importantly, have I tried to "green-ify", orange capitalism, which I consider a hole in my devlopment.

These comments are painted with a very broad brush, but I want the basic argument to stand out, i.e. that green needs INTEGRAL pluralism to make sense to memes below green, and thus gain votes IMO. The fine points are for later.

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"When the two become as one, then shall ye enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Causal master J.C. (The Gnostic Gospels)

Hey pe48,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply..........I think your integral analyses are very much on target...........

My point is green (meaning the liberal/progressive wing of the Democrats in the USA here and now) will not have a chance to take charge unless it gives up it relativistic pluralism and graduates to integral pluralism (maybe that means graduating to second tier.) Green eco-values and communitarian values are desperately needed now, but, in addition, so is second-tier INTEGRAL pluralism to face the realities of fundamenalism - Islamic (more dangerous) and Christian (less so, but reactionary, nonetheless). 

This is an area that interests me a great deal.......and I suppose I hold a minority opinion.........that the next dominant paradigm that should emerge (according to SDi theory anyway) is Green........despite its limitations (which are significant, but less so than Blue or Orange which have been dominant for millenia and centuries now)...........Each preceeding paradigm fell from dominance as it was no longer adequate to deal with the major crises facing it..........and this is what is happening to blue/orange today............

I believe relative pluralism is a postive advancement in values, but the devil is in the details of how this is defined and manifested in practical ways in the quadrants...........this is an ongoing process of difficult change.........that we can still see being played out between blue and orange (which is contributing greatly to our current increasing failures and fall (regression) in the world..........part of the problem is that neither blue and orange have been implemented in the world, yet anyway, in the most healthy and optimal ways...........and this needs to occur while also incorporating more green..........adding more complexity as we move higher............

In a healthy green value system, we would still realize that healthy blue values are crucial and needed to control red; orange science is needed to control and overcome the blue limitations of pre-rational values; and green pluralism is needed to overcome orange limitations of the "physical flatland" reality that almost totally prevails today (in which orange inadequacies are the cause of the blue rebellion............and in which blue obviously does not provide an adequate spiritual, moral and legal framework that can manifest a just and fair society for all)..........

We see the reality of much-more, if not dominant, green values in Europe and Canada and other countries around the world today..........but for some reason we in the U.S. have been retarded in our necessary development, while Europe may be already moving to embrace second tier yellow values and practices ...........it seems to me we want to skip the Green stage somehow (e.g., to protect the unhealthy levels of wealth and power some classes have accumulated based on the backs of others' labors and under-compensation and for other pragmatic reasons that IMO just seem to be rationalizations to maintain the status quo.........).

Perhaps a greater collapse of the orange economy is necessary before we can ultimately overcome the paralysis of the exclusionary, controlling self-interest of the "majority" in the U.S...........minority opinions and policies can very quickly become majority ones if mortgages become non-payable, employment becomes scarce, costs continue to outrun wages and a decent quality of life is threatened............

A new alternative system is possible that does not impose a tyranny of majority nor minority opinion unfairly on all citizens (a truly healthy pluralism)..........and while the barriers currently seem insurmountable, they are illusory............

I look forward to your and others' reactions........

All the best,

R.K.

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"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003

My point is green (meaning the liberal/progressive wing of the Democrats in the USA here and now) will not have a chance to take charge unless it gives up it relativistic pluralism and graduates to integral pluralism (maybe that means graduating to second tier.) Green eco-values and communitarian values are desperately needed now, but, in addition, so is second-tier INTEGRAL pluralism to face the realities of fundamenalism - Islamic (more dangerous) and Christian (less so, but reactionary, nonetheless). 

I tend to agree with this. 2nd tier leadership, that recognizes green values as well as the dominant orange would lead to a more harmonious society.

RK wrote:Perhaps a greater collapse of the orange economy is necessary before we can overcome the paralysis of the exclusionary, controlling self-interest of the "majority" in the U.S.

Perhaps, but wouldn't the collapse of the Orange economy result in the effort to rebuild it, thus stalling advancement? I think Green should come from the fullfilment of heathy Orange, which is why I tend to emphasize improving the current orange meme. That said, I also think that the the quickest way to advancement is disappointment or disharmony with the current structure and this propells one to higher memes. When 2nd tier is reached, integration and re-establishing health and balance to the lower memes is then a priority.

So, it seems to me these are the two possibilities: 1)The slow approach emphasizing the health of the current meme and 2) the fast track approach, where circumstances create disharmony and push a society to the next level. This would be a really bumpy ride, though.

Or perhaps a third possibility is the integral leadership mentioned earlier.

Hey Kaspan

Perhaps, but wouldn't the collapse of the Orange economy result in the effort to rebuild it, thus stalling advancement?

I think SDi theory is based on findings that in each era, the dominant paradigm shifted due to at least partial collapse or failure of the prevailing system and its values.  I don't know why this would be different in moving to the next level now.

I think Green should come from the fullfilment of heathy Orange, which is why I tend to emphasize improving the current orange meme. That said, I also think that the the quickest way to advancement is disappointment or disharmony with the current structure and this propells one to higher memes.

I agree that would be ideal, but I just don't see the signs of that happening in meaningful ways during the past 40 years........in fact, we are regressing now more to blue than orange in many sectors of society (including the current economic, social and political leadership).  I agree about disappointment and disharmony with the current structure being a propellant........but it must also be a motivator to make significant structural changes that are necessary and we are paralyzed on this front today by the dominance of blue/orange values and resources.........

When 2nd tier is reached, integration and re-establishing health and balance to the lower memes is then a priority.

Why not just do this when Green becomes dominant?

So, it seems to me these are the two possibilities: 1)The slow approach emphasizing the health of the current meme and 2) the fast track approach, where circumstances create disharmony and push a society to the next level. This would be a really bumpy ride, though.

I'm all for increasing the health of orange (and work for this everyday), but just don't see the requisite commitment for it or movement in that direction right now.........it has slowed to the point orange is regressing (partially due to orange's own inadequacies and failings and partly due to blue's re-ascendence)........we now seem dead in our tracks and falling backwards instead of having slow, steady progress.........

Circumstances are already creating disharmony and pushing society to the next level........and have been for the last 40 years or so on many, many fronts.........it already seems to me like it is a terribly bumpy ride, but as with the last great depression, it can still get a whole lot bumpier..........(when basic improvements were made in the orange system........such as social security, etc that many blues are now working to eliminate)..........

Or perhaps a third possibility is the integral leadership mentioned earlier.

Perhaps its really a matter of semanitics (since we don't yet know what the next level will actually be), but why can't healthy green leadership do this?

All the best,

R.K.

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"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003

One nice thing about green is that it is a heart orientated level. With todays society at orange and lower it feels like most people's center of gravity is in the abdominal region. These days I don't know what is harder: living with a closed heart or an open one.

Agreed........my sense is that openness is ultimately easier and wiser..........though this is personally very difficult for me and probably most people...........

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"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003

rk said:

Your point that the UL red/blue individual should somehow know better and be held accountable for terroristic crimes against humanity is well taken and understood.........but that is only part of the AQAL story that is no more important than the negative effects of the LR blue/orange dominated collective (western colonial and corporate/government structures and practices in the middle-east and third world, both current and historical)........

rk,

I think you misunderstand or you misspeak.  You cannot dismiss the statements made by saying that your LR critique is equal to the UL critique.  The quadrants are not absolutely equal, in all circumstances, at all times.  They are all-pervasive and ever-present.  But just because they are always there does not mean that they are all equally important in each circumstance.  It is possible for the UL to be the linch pin, supported by the existence of LL mythology and LR economics and institutions.  If so, attention must still be paid to the LR.  However, more attention and resources would be required to be directed at the UL. 

Similarly, there may be other things that, when they are tetra-enacted, the LR quadrant is dominant and more attention should be paid to that quadrant.  Smoking comes to mind.  Sure, it's an individual choice.  But when marketing and social norms and biological addiction are linked up (LR with LL and UR), focusing on the choice alone or equally does not make as much sense.  Better to sue Big Tobacco, limit its marketing, expose the lies, make physical addiction intervention available (the patch or gum), and alter the conversation about smoking by making it a communal issue (i.e. secondhand smoke).  Only then does it make sense to address individual choice, to me anyway.

I don't know that I agree that the UL is a dominant quadrant when it comes to Islamists.  But I don't know that I would say the LR is either.  I do think that both have an impact.  But to limit ourselves to saying that they all must have an equal impact is to hamstring ourselves before we've even begun.

Chris

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One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time. --Andre Gide

Hope is as hollow as fear. --Lao-tzu

hi Chris,

But to limit ourselves to saying that they all must have an equal impact is to hamstring ourselves before we've even begun.

All I was saying is that the UL is no more important than the LR in this case..........I think how you describe the case regarding tobacco is exactly the same view as I hold toward the situation in the middle-east........if one only recognizes the importance of any quadrant alone, one cannot have an adequate understanding of the phenomena.........no matter what that phenomena happens to be.

Now, IMO, if one is engaging in applied activity to influence a particular change or outcome, certain aspects of certain quadrants may be more important than others in realizing one's goal.........I claim no expertise in such applied theory.......which is I think where Don Beck, et al, do a lot of their work.......that is, pinpointing the most important phenomena and quadrants to target for various groups (usually in situations of conflict) depending on their overall v-meme characteristics............

This is where the rubber meets the road, IMO, in applied integral theory and practice.......and an area I would like to learn more about.................. that we need a lot of attention paid to if integralism is to be effective and the next dominant paradigm......

R.K.

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"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003

R.K.,

Fair enough.  I did not get from your prior post that you intended your statement to be specific to the particular case.  Perhaps poor reading on my part. 

Chris

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One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time. --Andre Gide

Hope is as hollow as fear. --Lao-tzu

Hey Chris,

I was talking about that specific case but do believe that what I said generally holds true also in all cases:

"........if one only recognizes the importance of any quadrant alone, one cannot have an adequate understanding of the phenomena.........no matter what that phenomena happens to be."

The disagreements that occur regarding practices likely revolve around how best to address each quadrant and the phenomena as a whole............

R.K.

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"No problem can be solved at the level of consciousness that created it in the first place!"

887 Posts on Forum #1; 222 Posts on Forum #2......Member Since 8/8/2003