このは手紙のさむらいと武士道言い逃れります。戈はやねへたをへんです。

重要はこざとへんます。終点はどくに私まりかたな精神でさむらいゼンて起きります。

このは助かりよ、のぞみな

 

Hey, I agree with your quandry Tim.  This is how I kind of got started on this whole thing is that Poetry and Art really reflects the institution and makes certain acadamia incorrectness for the point of example understanding that ultimately it's only part of a more comprehensive hierarchy.

---

"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

Tim , surely you don't condone bombing threads with off-topic posts?  I'd like to hear you're reasoning.

That said, I'm  sympathetic to keeping mcenter around. I've enjoyed those rare posts where he has combined his opaque poetic and straight prose. In an ideal integral forum, mcenter's contributions would be folded into the mix and played with in such a way that they became integrated rather than disruptive. And, in such a way that mcenter gained some enhanced skills in 'playing with others', and we others, in turn, received more of what he undoubtedly has to offer. But that's an ideal forum where Integral performance meets Integral concepts. It simply isn't here at this point. Instead we would have an exercise in chasing boundaries rather than communication.  The payback wouldn't equal the energy invested.

Of course, I could be quite wrong about that; perhaps if enough of us were to invest energy in addressing the issue of his presence with the intention of moving it to a space/outcome fully congruent with spirit, then, who knows? The very energy and intention, if gone into wholeheartedly, would ripple its way out to transformation, I imagine.  For now, though, I don't think any of us, certainly, not collectively, are up to it. I know I'm not.

And, I'm sympathetic, also, to the view that it doesn't hurt to fuck things up a little. What's to be gained, however, by screwing up an already ailing patient?  It's suggestive, though, isn't it,  that the first slew  of mass postings occurred when the site was almost completely dead. Perhaps mcenter functions in this integral body as part of a natural process. I'm no doctor but  I can think of two options: One is that bacteria has come to invade the rotting body that is the forum so as to begin the cycle into death - and beyond into life again. I did wonder with the initial lack of action from admin whether this was, indeed, the method to their madness. A wasteland occupied only by the thoughts of mcenter - a compelling rationale to close down an underperforming forum? Now that action has been taken their ongoing absence is puzzling. (admin where art thou?)

The second possibility is not so far from the first: mcenter is homeopathic in nature. A dose of the very poison the 'body' suffers. Does mcenter wake the forum up to its own nature?   Of course, the problem with this option is that mcenter's dose does seem more cancerous in nature than homeopathic, so I'm inclined to the crash and burn of option one.

For now, let us ban the man's sorry ass for not showing respect to others. He's a grown-up and I, for one,  in my not so integral, not very 2nd tierness think that we can expect more from him. Not to mention his crimes against the Japanese language. Sorry mc, but someone has to out (not least to you, perhaps) your abysmal Japanese. Its completely lacking in correct syntax, and thus quite meaningless beyond the creative renderings of Babelfish et al. Serious study is in order to provide ability to your passion.

 My comments about the forum are somewhat tongue in cheek, but I'm genuinely not sure over -  gentle treatment benefits mcenter. If anyone thinks I'm out of line or lacking compassion, then by all means correct me.

Metta,
Castel

adastra:

Corey: Is Ryan's sudden re-ability to post a glitch, or was the decision reversed for some reason, or what?  Anyway, I know that y'alls don't have much time to muck around in here, so whatever.  I seem to recall you saying that the posting system in Integral Life will be quite different - individuals will have moderator power over threads they start.  Is that right?

It's a glitch.  A really frustrating glitch that makes me look ever forward to a time when we will have the kick-ass community infrastructure--and oversight--that you all deserve.

That said, the decision to cancel his posting priveleges is one that, of course, i am always willing to reverse, if i could just get some sort of communication with mcenter that reaffirms me that he will at least TRY to make his posts relavent to forum threads, or else keep his more random cyphers contained to an "mcentering prayer" thread, or something along those lines.

And his community priveleges will be returned when we make the transition to the Integral Life community functions, when there will be some form of moderation from IL staff.

We need to be mindful that there is a very particular energetic to forums that everyone needs to be sensitive to, if we wish to make it a worthwhile community experience.  Part of that energetic is a willingness to actually engage in multi-throughput interactions with other people, rather than only using other people's conversations as an opportunity for creative self-expression.  People don't always like paint to be randomly dripped over them, especially when the artist seems unwilling to engage in any other means of interaction.  I am absolutely 100% for creative self-expression--but i am also absolutey 100% for mutually-acknowledged codes of conduct, requiring some capacity for self-reflection and self-correction when other people in the community begin to feel that you are being disruptive.

emcenter, again, if you would like to discuss this - please email me at cdevos (at) integrallife (dot) com.  There are no grudges, no ill-will, just a desire to keep the community from fragmenting in the face of disruption.  I hope we ALL have been able to learn something from the Helene debacle--and i find myelf at the very top of that list.

Otherwise, i will continue investigating why exactly the community-banning settings are not functioning properly, and will correct the error.

---

__________________________

Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
Brand Manager, Integral Naked
Audio Manager, Integral Institute
Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
__________________________

Hi Corey

Thanks for the clarification.

cheers,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

adastra:

Hi Corey

Thanks for the clarification.

exactly. as someone mystified by what's going on, corey's message is a great help.

[the following day] the other messages as well!

---

Last night I sent this PM to mcenter:

Hi Ryan,

Surprised just now to see that you are logged in, after reading that you may no longer be able to post in this particular place, I want to take this opportunity to thank you for all the sincerity, energy, effort and engagement that you have entered into here.

Be Well,

Kerry

~

I was only partly aware of a track record of incongruity, but until last night I hadn't read in his own words that he may happen to have, or have had, a psychiatric diagnosis. At this I felt uneasy at Ryan's response in a thread I started, a thread with a link to an article that describes a young Japanese man with probable schizophrenia.

Without guessing what figures into another's 'triggers', I did want to say this this evening as a step toward acknowledging that we do have an effect on oneanother, what ever that actually is, and that is always at least a two-way street.

I see this as hopeful. The more awareness we can bring to the whole process of posting here the greater our chances at realizing community. Ryan had been a regular. I visited with an announcement. My awareness of who I might be addressing was/is very limited.

Without blame I'm watching what's arising for me, appreciating the subtlty of community, the unknowables of one-another, and orienting toward a stronger kindness.

- recognizing the preciousness of opportunities,

Kerry

---

'takes all kinds.

quoting mcenter: "Poetry and Art really reflects the institution and makes certain acadamia incorrectness for the point of example understanding that ultimately it's only part of a more comprehensive hierarchy." i hope we all reflect on this and its context in the goings-on, and for it to be said after all this raucus. thinking about this for a few minutes is worth more than any post we'll post, or any technical discussion or philosophical musing about forum politics.

i wonder, who has handled the situation with the most patience, tolerance, and openness to truth? there is no answer (at least I've none).


mcenter, things to say to you:

babel fish is my only vision into your postings. but we can make a poem out of anything, can't we? i wish more of us would try. it really is a magnificent somethingorother, somethinggrand.

i (relatively) implore you: speak to us as we know how to hear. the japanese is beautiful but this is english. why can't your poetry and art be in a form that communicates in a way we can all unite upon. i would love to reflect you if possible, but i would like to be an accurate mirror. how can we reflect you if we cannot see you as you are?

emphasis on: unite upon. this is why we're here, eh?


anything else:

i do feel like the internet operates in such a manner that it is theoretically and energitically alright for randomness to occur wherever it feels like occuring. sure, we are paying for this forum access and our internet access, but it does not cost more to scroll a bit further on the screen, past anything you feel like not reading. I suppose it is "interrupting" (or something). but it is not too hard to ignore it if one must.

anyways, I don't think we should get in the habit of ignoring anything.

and since this is an odd place to be:   yhwh.com (scroll down to God is not God's name to begin the journey)

why not?


castel: you seem upset. why so upset? you are making mcenter out to be a childish fool... do you really think he is? if so, why? have you asked these things of yourself?

will you you think me a heretic if or blasphemous if i say mcenter does bring us all up? what is the resistence? who is resisting? self-inquiry is the Way.

Kerry: "Without blame, I'm watching what's arising for me, appreciating the subtlty of community, the unknowables of one-another, and orienting toward a stronger kindness, recognizing the preciousness of opportunities." what a beautiful sentence! (and message...)


best and blessings,
tim.

---

"identity which is not convulsive ceases to exist" ---breton

Nine Ways Not to Talk about God

Hi Tim,
 
Its always best to remain open and supple in mind. I couldn't agree more. I don't always manage to do it. Your own large heart is admirable.

Am I upset? Frustrated and exasperated would be the words I'd have chosen. And why shouldn't I be? mcenter has been spamming for some time. We're finally told  that his posting privileges have been revoked. Yet, lo and behold, he's right back again. You say that I seem to regard him as a childish fool. It's unfortunate if my impatience has given that impression. In fact, I more regard him as an intelligent man who can be held responsible for his actions. He may have some struggles - more than average, perhaps, but the times we  have seen mcenter express himself in straight prose he strikes me as quite articulate and perceptive. I certainly think he is capable of discerning what is acceptable, and what is not. And I would expect of him to respond to warnings, and, if not, suffer the consequences. Indeed, to not give anyone clear and concrete feedback seems  indulgent to me, and to both hinder capacities to make rational and autonomous decisions as well as to grow.

I'd have to  say that a large part of my exasperation was really with admin and the length of time it took for them to initially act, followed by the swift return of mcenter. The combination of admin's lack of response and mcenter's  discommunication combined to feel disprespectful and uncaring from all angles to me. Spirit is love. Love is attention. So where was the attention?   I belong to other forums and  this sort of behavior is simply not tolerated. And why should it be? He's thumbing his nose at forum members as well as at warnings to desist or face the consequences. In what sense is he communicating on matters of  spirit, or integral, in a way that allows others to share? Instead, he's actively spamming opaque  wisdom with the intention of what exactly?. Spam is simply not a viable ingredient in a community of conversations unless it becomes included in those conversations. You came up with an inspired reading of his Japanese. That's great, but all it really evidenced is that the world is, indeed, in a grain of sand, and, that, given the impetus and ability on the part of the interpreter, meaning can be read into any aspect of the world. Are you willing to do this for all of mc's offerings? And will he respond? And how?  And how exactly do you see your engagement playing out over time?

You suggest self-inquiry, Tim, and that's always a good approach. Here it leads me in two directions. One is on the question of the disrespect I mention above. Why should I care about disrespect? Who's being disrespected? Why should it be an issue here for me?  Good questions, and ones that as soon as they are asked begin to leaven and loosen up the irritation I feel. And ones that lead me to realize that I'm not satisfied with what I get from this forum. So, yes, some of that frustration finds itself coming to a head over this incident. I should own that some of the frustration I felt (feel) is entirely my responsibility, and mine to find a solution to.

Still, I feel a sharp response is entirely called for at times. I don't know if fine feelings and hand wringing over the decision is really going to provide much traction for mcenter to learn from this situation. Is it ok if I extend to others my  own self-expectations on the matter of taking responsibility?
 
I realize I'm banging on a bit here, and it's not  unlikely, that, in my irritation,  I'm both full of presumption, and not quite getting it. There is, however, the irreducible bottom line of a spammer who's been asked to stop, and won't, and an admin that seems to be consistently present, after the fact, and promising it will all be better come the future. I can hear the genuine effort and care evident in Corey's response, but why isn't someone monitoring the forum for five minutes a day to prevent these sorts of spamming incidents. Why wasn't the the technical means to block spammers sorted out long ago when Helen caused such grief. These are 'rubber hits the road' questions of attention and care.

Oh, and for the record, I'm something of an mcenter fan and what he brings to the forum when he's posts with discipline. I'd like to see him back.  If you track back through my comments, you'll see that amidst all the impatience, and 'upset', as you term it Tim,  my message is essentially affirmings of both mcenter and his fascinations, and of giving him more than one chance. The desire to express oneself via art is always a cool thing, and I like the trickster aspect he offers. I'd just like him to exercise more discipline, for both his, and our, sakes. And, if he cannot,  I don't believe we do him any favors by indulging him.


Best, unrepentedly (if not exactly proudly) exasperated,
Castel

Castel,

Your apprasial is so aware and honest. From where I see it, out your frustration and attempt to be aware of it you have articulated the complaints against mcenter as well as they have been.

All I can say is that I agree with all you've said about discipline and respect. I am a fan too; I hope he heeds advice.

I too agree that a sharp response is sometimes warranted and necessary. What I appreciate about this forum is that, while things can flare up, there is a general willingness to let the ego and our ignorances work through themselves and loosen up, etc. And we know that being as honest as possible (even if "upset" or undisciplined) is the way. The line that mcenter has walked in this vein challenges all of us.

I hope your frustrations are eased. It will be a communal ease, if it is.

---

"identity which is not convulsive ceases to exist" ---breton

Nine Ways Not to Talk about God