I would love to see Gangaji as a guest on IN.  I'm not sure to what extent her worldview is integral - in fact, that question has become a slightly maddening koan for me, which is both deliciously engaging and a welcome distraction from the ego-threatening core of her message. 

I'm checking her out,    watching and listening to her closely, and in my assessment she has a lot of integrity, wisdom, and a very practical outlook - I suspect being a mother and a grandmother, and having gone through a lot of self-development prior to realization, has a lot to do with that.

In an IN dialog, we could find out just how integral she is...and it would also inject integral memes into the Gangaji scene, which is always a good thing.  I loved the dialogs Bert Parlee did with Adyashanti; Bert would be an excellent choice to interview Gangaji.

Would others like to see Gangaji as a guest on IN? 

spiral out,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

This excellent interview is from http://www.spiritofmaat.com/



Adams: Many people spend their lives trying to create security for themselves. They have all kinds of insurance plans and retirement plans. Their understanding of creating a secure life often keeps them locked into jobs that they don't like and marriages where there is no communication and little love. What are the consequences of this obsession with security and how does it prevent people from understanding their true nature and freedom?

Gangaji: It is all based on a lie. The lie is that you can control the events of life. September 11 penetrated that lie here in the United States. Now we have to see that no matter how much we try to be secure — even to the degree of selling our souls for security, living false, loveless lives for security — in an unexpected instant it can all disappear.

If we are willing to face this inherent danger of life and the inevitable, unknowable disappearance of the forms of life — in other words, if we are willing to face death — then we can live freely. Not stupidly — perhaps still with insurance plans, still with retirement plans — but unbound from the false hope that any plan can ever truly ultimately protect us.

Adams: How did you become interested in the true meaning of freedom? And what process did you go through in shifting to that in your own being?

Gangaji: I first dealt with the concept of freedom by being involved in the civil rights movement. I grew up in Mississippi and was conditioned to believe that black people were subhuman. It was not until I had professors who taught me otherwise that I had my first awakening to freedom.

When I was 19, I realized that my family had been lying to me about the innate inhumanity of black people — as past generations had lied to them through hundreds of years of self-perpetuating ignorance. I became involved in civil rights when I realized that black people were being denied the freedoms I had as a white person. That was in the mid-'sixties.

Then I recognized that our government was denying the Vietnamese people the power to choose their own destinies, and I became semi-active in the anti-Vietnam War protest. That was in the late '60s and early '70s. Later I was led into the women's movement, and I had to face how I myself was seen as a second-class citizen.

There was a lot of gratification in meeting these challenges. Still, there remained an underlying suffering that I couldn't put my finger on. I just felt myself to be unhappy, and I was searching for happiness. I can't say I was consciously searching for freedom — first, I simply recognized my continued unhappiness.

In the mid-'sixties I married and had a child, and soon I blamed the marriage for my dissatisfaction. In the early '70s, I left the marriage. I was living in San Francisco at the time, and began experimenting with LSD, mescaline, and different mind-expanding substances of the era. During this time something popped open, and I saw the bondage of my self-centered life. Now I see that this bondage was based on my identification with being a person, a woman, even a free woman — that was all part of the bondage. Although I had a good life, I was fighting myself.

Along with this, I did some meditation, and I was reading spiritual literature. I began to sense that real freedom was possible, and I could see that I was not free.

I began a spiritual search. Though I was still politically involved and participated in nonviolent protests, and even went to jail, I could also recognize in the political movement that we were bound by our self-righteousness. Now it was the PG&E representatives that were being made subhuman. This was sickening to me, and so I left the political movement. The struggle had become the idol.

I threw myself into spiritual searching through Tibetan Buddhism. Then I recognized that here, also, was that same kind of smugness: Those who were searching considered themselves better.

I was in a quandary. By this time I was married to my present husband, Eli, and I began to realize that Eli was devoted to serving the truth more than he was devoted to me. I was attracted to that in him, and I was attracted to that same devotion to truth in myself. I wanted truth even if the discovery led to the realization that freedom itself was an illusion. The truth was more important than myself, it was more important than happiness or even God.

My husband and I were involved in Tibetan Buddhism, then Zen Buddhism, and we also studied the Enneagram. We were interested in working on ourselves to get to our true nature; to see if freedom could be found.

We reached a point where we were stalled. We recognized that we had done as much as we could on our own. This was the mid-'80s — by that time we were living in Mill Valley, and I was practicing acupuncture. We had a materialistic lifestyle, and the more we had material freedom, the more we felt burdened.

In earlier years, I was married to a doctor, and felt that I had to give up that marraige. It had been a leap for me to give that up. I had “married well,” but I hadn't been happy because it was blocking my self-discovery. I'd had to take a leap and give up that secure life. Now, in the same way, Eli and I both realized that we had to give up the life we were living. It was eating us alive. We had a house, we both had practices — we were living a good life, but it was soul-draining.

We sold our house and moved to Hawaii. We wanted to open a spiritual center. We wanted groups that we could support and be supported by in discovering truth. We wanted to know truth, and what truth has to do with freedom.

We moved to Maui in 1989, and we both prayed for a teacher, since we had reached the end of what we could do on our own. We were unconsciously spinning in a mental wheel. We each asked for a teacher and synchronistically heard of a teacher in India, through one of his students. Eli went to India and met with Papaji, H.W.L. Poonja, in 1990. While there, Eli would write me letters, and these letters were filled with transcendence and joy. We felt this was the teacher we had been praying for.

In April, 1990, I met Papaji in India. I saw in his eyes something huge. He asked me what we wanted. I told him freedom. He laughed and laughed and said that we were in the right place. This was the defining moment of my life, as I recognized him as my true teacher and placed my spiritual questions in his hands. And Papaji asked me to stop my search for freedom.

It took me some time to understand what it meant to stop. I had feared that if I stopped my search I would lose what I had gained. I guess there was either a desperation, a maturity, or a grace so that I could finally just hear him. He asked me to stop following the stories of my mind; the thoughts and concepts of my mind. He was asking me not to follow any concepts of who I am as a person, as a woman, as a spiritual seeker, as someone who is free or not free: He invited me to just stop and to recognize the truth “I am.”

Adams: Can you describe this moment of stopping?

Gangaji: The power of stopping in the presence of someone who has stopped is indescribable. There's no concept of anything in that moment of stopping. Yet there's consciousness. Consciousness without concept is naturally and inherently free. In an instant, it is self-evident.

We are so trained to follow our concepts. We even believe that consciousness is a concept. When we talk of either being aware or not being aware, we are actually speaking of a particular state of awareness rather than of awareness itself.

In this timeless instant of recognizing that consciousness exists without any need of concept, identity with concept falls away. This is not the end, but this is the essential experience. What follows is the deepening recognition that consciousness is free regardless of concept. First, consciousness is free with no concept, then consciousness is always free regardless of concept or no concept. Nothing touches freedom. This is true freedom.

A concept of myself as a woman doesn't touch the truth of myself as consciousness.

Adams: Can this shift in recognizing the truth of our existence, of embracing our freedom, create great problems in terms of navigating the practical demands of daily life?

Gangaji: Let me answer that with a story from my own life.

When I was six years old, there was an internal event where I recognized that my body was empty. It was a terrifying experience. My mother took me to a doctor and I was given Phenobarbital for it!

Later, in meditation, that same experience arose. But because it arose this time during Buddhist meditation, there was a welcoming context that allowed me to sit with the terror.

So I would say, yes, terror is part of this essential shift, because the shift threatens the known structure of life. Terror can have many different disguises, including anger, numbness, and despair. This existential terror is like the gargoyle at the gate. It can keep you away from the revelation of the unknown.

The messages from great masters encourage us to meet the terror of dissolution of our individuality. The result is paradoxical: The individual is dissolved, and yet becomes more individuated. The uniqueness of consciousness is consciousness knowing itself through form — your particular form — and knowing itself as the animating force of everything.

There is a point where there is a willingness to give up individuality. In that willingness to surrender, what is actually released is conditioned individuality. What is revealed is consciousness that is unified with all consciousness. There has to be the willingness to lose everything, which is perceived to be the individual self. Terror comes with the fear of the loss. The reality of this loss is not what can be imagined. When the loss comes, it is only, really, good news. The individual identify is the husk that covers the sweet Truth of self-realization.

Part of the realization is that what remains of this body is conditioned. It is genetically, environmentally, and karmically bound. It may be relatively free, but it is subject to pain, disease, and death. Apparently free moments — like lovemaking, dancing, running — will all come to an end.

Adams: I know that you regularly meet with groups of prisoners; and about the transformation of John, one of the prisoners that you met with. I think it's a remarkable story, how John was sentenced to thirty years for robbing banks and organizing bombings and, three and a half years after meeting with you, was released on parole, and is now sharing his experiences of freedom in satsang [spiritual meetings].

Can you speak about the meetings that you have with prisoners and what they are learning about the nature of freedom.

Gangaji: I love going into prisons, because when we talk about freedom in prison, the men who have realized freedom know that freedom is not about the body. Out of three thousand men, fifteen or twenty will come to the meetings. As with our population at large, only a small segment of the prison population is interested in true freedom.

The freedom that prisoners realize in meeting their imprisonment reveals clearly to them why they failed in their search for freedom of the body. Many people are in prison for doing what they wanted to do regardless of the law. In recognizing the fallacy of that, and meeting the terror and despair of that, there's a discovery of what is truly, uncontrollably free. Their day-to-day lives are not free — yet freedom is there.

They realize that freedom is not about being inside or outside the prison, and they become great instructors for those who are relatively physically free. It is infantile to think, “If I could get to a point where I could do what I wanted to do then I could be free.” That is a lie. For those who are willing to meet the lie, and the disillusionment of the lie, what is always free, regardless of the limitations of the body, can be realized.

Adams: Why is it important to let go of our life story in order to access freedom?

Gangaji: In order to discover reality, there has to be a willingness to let go of the concept of reality. Reality can't even be compared to your concepts. Reality is beyond vast. Even to know another person, you have to meet that person in the Unknown. Whenever you really investigate something, you must let go of everything preconceived to meet what is really here.

Adams: Many people are talking about how we are losing freedoms in exchange for national security. Many of the freedoms guaranteed to us in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution are being canceled due to “national emergency.” What should we do to preserve these freedoms?

Gangaji: I don't have a formula. If you are drawn to protest and march and write letters, you should do that. And if you are drawn to be still, you should trust what you are called to do.

We live in an experimental state, and our freedoms are fragile. I happen to be the kind of person who reads the newspapers, but I wouldn't say that another person should do the same thing. If you are wired to speak, you should speak the truth. I never dreamed I would end up speaking to hundreds or thousands of people after I came back from being with my teacher in India. But I knew I had to share what I had realized.

Tell the truth about what you want. What is your life-form essentially about? It is deeper than a hunger for food and a procreative longing to couple. What is the longing of your heart and soul? Is it a longing for freedom and truth? If so, then you have an opportunity to surrender your concepts — even to surrender your concept of freedom and truth. There's no ABC formula. It's a sublime alchemy. It's all really about the individual mind trusting the deeper unity of consciousness, which is free already.

Adams: What causes suffering?

Gangaji: Suffering happens when your concepts of happiness, truth, and freedom are seen as separate from you. I'm not speaking of the compassionate suffering you experience when you see the suffering of the world. There is appropriate suffering, where you recognize the hurt that is part of life. Suffering may be a necessary part of life. There is also unnecessary suffering where one is wrapped up in replaying one's own dramas — that is neurosis.

Adams: Why do some people give up their freedom to teachers and gurus?

Gangaji: This question can be dangerous.

There has to be a recognition of a core of integrity. Papaji said, If God himself comes down and tells you that you are not free, then turn your back on God. You have to recognize the truth of who you are so that this truth cannot be coerced or manipulated. The danger is in the inflation of that — the inflation of ego. Megalomania is all around us. And there is the complementary, deflated belief that only the guru can give us freedom.

With both inflation and deflation, everything can be corrupted by the ego, either the student's ego or the teacher's. Ego is the concept of who we are. It's the ego, the concept of who we are, that keeps us from recognizing our true freedom.

Adams: Ramana said that self-realization can be found through self-inquiry — by asking the question, “Who am I?” Could you comment on the importance of asking this question?

Gangaji: If you just take a moment, this moment, to simply for an instant let everything go — the search, the denial, the rejection, the clinging — let them all go and just for a moment rest in the truth of your being, then you can know you are that! Whatever comes after that comes in the context of who you truly are.

An exquisite and important moment in a lifestream occurs when one recognizes the disgusting habits, the addictions, the horror, the violence, and the filth that one has called oneself. It is a great shock, a great shaking. And it is very important. Otherwise, the horror and filth just continue to accumulate in the name and the exultation of “me” and “my story.” This recognition is a spiritual shock, and there can be, and usually is, a great trembling — and then a desire to find what is true, what is real, what is pure, what is holy, what is free.

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

In this business you are absolutely on your own. In that moment there is no teacher, there is no teaching, there is no God, there is no devil. There's no heaven, there's no hell, there's no enlightenment, there's no unenlightenment. It's simply a matter of telling the truth. You can get away with it, if you lie. There's nobody who will say, “gotcha!” I mean, there will be, but they're probably doing their whole thing too. [laughter] This is the beauty of this Lila. This is where you're absolutely alone. All the support has been to that moment. And teachers are fooled all the time anyway - because teachers believe those who are trustworthy and they believe those who are untrustworthy; they don't want to waste your time not believing somebody, right? You understand what I'm saying? You can't count on somebody, “well, you'll let me know if I'm off!” No, you are the only one who can really, finally, know. There are lots of great acts in the world, but you know. And this is a rare and precious moment, this moment before the choice of suffering is taken up again. - Gangaji, Innocence, Trust & Self-Betrayal

The entire video is available on Google video:

Innocence, Trust and Self-Betrayal (1:06:02)

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

I thought others would be interested in a Gangaji dialog, but maybe not...anyway, she's great - check her out!  I'll be doing a retreat with her in a little over two weeks, wheeeeeeee! 

Here's a few Youtube videos of Gangaji:

Gangaji [on Freedom] (2:01)

What's My Core Message? [www.gangaji.org] (9:41)

Gangaji - Spiritual Traps (9:03)

~~~

spiral out,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

I thought there was a way, but I have what you call a regular problem.  If I could only find, my way, I much would appreciate this.  In the very very what? is that could.  What if trebble who for, stale as it is a mo-uth.  ouch, my shoulder hurts, she hits hard, but i hit you harder So Let's uh Tour

---

"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

I am dust.  I've gotta be ridiculous.  here's where I tell you total loss, what went wrong, i took extra too long, and then really explain okay, this is all going so don't be ready, Bag-Packed Bleach, Excess Blubber, Why don't I just stumble, already, so she said she and he said jointly, most people feel us, maybe um I'm not lonely I'm just on unready, and when is like saying your ugh precious

no can you not.  It's just a merecat, I can't believe you would be permiscuous and I would be pernicious, if that was so, then what who and how low, if our lives don't look any different from here on out whose gonna nip it? Sorrow hits a note, prrof errant I can no longer give the realizations we wrote, can you say shrug-it-off, sing-it-off, or just say shrug-it-off to all the people who care like you really didn't care with your whole heart, maybe everyone gets scared and runs away when they see me in their mind.  It's getting three-legged and I'm way too miced-up in the rhined.

All you can do is wipe it like you there really wasn't that much hype, and to What's happened with the way people talk? Sit Down, this person really hates you for saying things, and do you like to make people cry?  Triple Ouch, same word, whenever we make our lives out like sometimes we have to make them out, and no one really understands why you made-out, or had a talk and got caked-out, if you can be then I could be but how I could be a bee, man, we'z faked-out.  You know those things you do and say who can ever do or say that they did or said more. And Crash!

 Maybe I won't sleep tonight, translate this all later, I might, do as you may, and have some new insight, some girl in the light, some boy who knew that a joke, right, makes an ass out of the entire aho nation.  If I admit that I'm a real Jerk, and a really lame asshole, then I'll go to bed because there she is, the rest of this so-called Life, what's worse? I can talk longer than you, i can keep it grumpy, something missing in a life we call this one, I don't but those syllables together too closely, would YOU NOW or infinite possibility digression on your bff.  Build me a rock-stone, write on it what you want and make-out to it.

Pick-up your pipe fifer, play your music-video, I'll have my favorite beer and call it Rorchidori, Wow, the itsu on me, the small incisions in my chest-plate, Dun'dun'dun, Let me take you back to the Homeland, don't spit on my path i-m, me, honey, The Biggest Part of Me is picking your song, MAN, Yah, E I chi that really hurts right now like there was a big missing piece in your soul that a giant soul demon made, a soul demon who steals souls, HOLY SHIT! oh well since you double could call me crazy.

So, what's up? I'm just selling my Caddies, I thought first, download the Blue Drizzle and then I went into overdrive, overdrive edge, In a second they'll say he'z totally serious and it won't even matter, then he'll say something like, (he being me that is how you guys do it right? really I wouldn't know, did I mention there was a misunderstanding, would you quite calling me T-M is really the cutest box), I need to take that all back, and they'll say no we totally are not that pernicious.

Oh just in case no one thought you'd never hear it my phone answering machine says that I'm the Drizzle Mac and that i hope you don't have to call me in case of an emergency because I would really want to know whether anyone cares about our deaths, that's super funny, ouch one, I'm always thinking about that, but not really saying those things, them, every word hurt things.  Why does everyone think that Ryan has to be put-up to a super-test, do you Adastra? But he won't cause he runs away and he'll never know who he wants to be, so let's make sure to not like anyone, especially me, cause a big dark hole where everyone hates me might eventually result in the desired result, death.  What's worse my piper-girl, I live by the Code of Indelable Principles and your a dancing paper dancing piper girl princing me from the very beginning from the ultimate dance-ferry dance, and re-watch, and re-interupt my self, Oh sometimes I'll even swallow every syllable.  Your ALL my ENIMIes!

I pimp it, like a gangster, when You say God does sound like RYAN.  tHAAt's a pain worth the point but this isn't this is new blues and indigo hugs, not! hey, you wear for me, is that even a question, then you answer to a pimp.  boota boota, boota, oh when hold your finger fo me, woota awota wota would-a would-a, When I'm piling dishes, diss'n bitches, returnin' checks, I'm a Pimp.  And whatever I'll just let it drizzle, pimp-style, pimp-biscuit, pimp-o-pumppimpkin.  Ask Yourself, why me being a pimp hurts, because I am such a pimp that hurts to be pimped, and a pimp without an I am is a hurting Pimp, and it hurts to be a Pimp, (especially cause like I never have sex except all the time in my bed, and I always answer questions like I was already the pimp you wanted me to be in a pimp bock) and I'm tearing up my pimp-block, no more, in the sort-of so-called everyday way I am.

Do-Do-Do-Do-Do, there was this guy, no that is the guy, the guy the dude, the omaba don't you split spit spill lisp the chorus silence reallity with two unrealities, and now I'm on the O-maybe, I'm like a flipped-admit to a room full of dick, so-sick we could never have a meeting full of uck, shoe mercy, afraid of infancy and mother pussy, hustle and wreck the maximum, cause he hot u i eyez and you can't remember anything but a favorite song, hum-drum love amber tussle poopies, me and bob and brad and together we're not puppies, I'm the soul stealer in everysingle diametric, oh, uoo,oh your just that guy.

Does anybody know where I can get a hold of Ken Wilber?  I need to request that, ur, something.  I need to substitute and someone will always substitute for you if I'm not there, and the fill-in pout.  No not really, everyone knows I can talk to anyone i want, HAha.  Would you let the question stand?  Do two lonely hearts keep moving to the beat, and the drum, and you know what that means?  Drums mean Bad Rasta Heart.  No, Just kidding, I'm totally not ready for people to recognize me, and if in the half-fallow drift do I fade, rake not me but the piss I left for you.  And if I mend to the music the mesh and the mirage of self me little yields would marriage not call me Christ.

Now, that everyone is getting ready, I'm sure there is a little bit of the skewer to pick.  Like my Inane oi and that's not viewer friendly.  I can hear the sighs and the crys, they are all like it's your fault, you don't deserve me, and so on. 

But on the otherhand, the relief and instant of reloading, they (meaning those who think about you but or maybe those who don't think about you that you want them to think about you in a semi-cordial way and the other that thinks about you but doesn't want you to know that you hate them) want closeness and privacy and (ouch)hurrahs(sorry)

that didn't help, I know

 

 

 

  

---

"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

Would definitely be interesting to find out just how integral Gangaji is. She helps many to see deeper than concepts about who/what we are. Don't know if her approach is integral. Let's see, eh?

k54maze:

Would definitely be interesting to find out just how integral Gangaji is. She helps many to see deeper than concepts about who/what we are. Don't know if her approach is integral. Let's see, eh?

Thanks, it's good to know there's at least one other person out there who'd like to hear Gangaji do a dialog here. 

spiral out,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

So then we get to really the deeper issue, which is what you call resistance to me - a teacher, a guru. It's not resistance to me, it's resistance to yourself. It's a fear of giving up the self-doubt, because that self-doubt has been a companion - a tyrant of a companion, but nevertheless it's kept you in line. It's kept you from being too arrogant, it's kept you from being a megalomaniac - which you have seen, we have them in history, we have them in our lives - and there's a fear of that, because there's also a recognition of the talent for that, or the affinity for that. This is all part of the human makeup, the human aggression. So the self-doubt, or the superego, we're very afraid of giving up its power. But it must be given up. That's the leap, there must be a willingness to stop resisting yourself, however that forms, in whatever forumula - and it's infinite.

There must be a willingness to give up the self-doubt, so that if there is arrogance or megalomania or delusion there, it can be seen. If there is self-hatred there, it can be seen; if there is hatred for your fellow companions, it can be seen. The self-doubt, it's you that is basically wrong; of course you see those who are more wrong all the time [laughter] but at the core of it, it is you that is wrong. So this is a huge challenge - and I'm not saying that arrogance and megalomania won't appear; I would expect it, if I were you. If it's being hidden, it will appear. It's only then that it can be seen; and if it is seen, it is seen for the suffering that it is, for the absurdity that it is, and it's not followed. If it's not seen, it's followed unconsciously, subconsciously.

So then we have this duet between self-doubt and arrogance, ego and superego; and deeper than that, closer than that, is the Truth. At one time this teaching, which is really present in all religions, was kept very very secret, until you had proved yourself not a megalomaniac, [laughs] a level of maturity. I know that's true in the Tibetan Dzogchen teachings; it's only recently that they've even been spoken of, nobody even knew about them. And it's true of Christian mystics, you know, St. John of the Cross spent many years in a prison cell.

These are unusual times, this is a dangerous teaching. It is a dangerous invitation. These are dangerous times. And somehow, you are here - maybe thinking the danger is too big, or thinking you're not ready. Whatever you are thinking, that is ego or superego. The Truth is closer than that. And the invitation is to recognize yourself as the Truth, by that recognizing all the lies as they appear, the temptations as they appear, the elaborate explanations and justifications for the temptations as they appear - with now the capacity to choose the Truth. There is such space when the attention that has been knotted around seeking the Truth and resisting the Truth is cut.  - Gangaji, Innocence, Trust & Self-Betrayal

The entire video is on Google video:

Innocence, Trust and Self-Betrayal (1:06:02)

~~~

I love that Gangaji says straight up that this is a dangerous teaching...and that these are dangerous times. 

spiral out,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Let me re-grow the formula, for now.  How exaclty you can create a sacred-space for someone who does not wish for that space to be sacred?  The point in the ego where acceptance gains control is not merely a perchance, but something which can not be demanded.  I find it inscrupulous of me to continue into a state of mind which does not have the right affective.  If we find ourselves in a place of comfort than most likely we should be non-realized.  Most often, I have discovered that when I create a binary for someone which comes out of method and of being and from some most self-assurance, that discovery leaves the other perplexed to the point of having to retract not only their philosophical statements but the position which they have not in mind, and could not have had, since the chance to reply is left null.  At these times, the participant, for never do I engage in a combative dialogue which does not end with the other being the participant, reveals either to themselves or the audience that indeed they have mis-stepped if not cried out in subtle rebuttle.   

         There is something you cannot accept.  This is the biased and freakish way in which we present our souls unthinkingly.  If you could trust a person with mere acceptance, then how could you possibliy trust someone with knowledge that does not represent the picturesque life with which you walked into the room.  I, for one, cannot betray my conscious.  When I'm wicked, I have no problems, just ask my gracious quotatious-style and you already know that I want to enunciate what my favorite drug to share with you would have to be.

                I am in complete agreement that when we allow ourselves to feel the hands and eyes of our beloved and our kin we rememorize the patterns which more or less generate a peaceful world order.  A quarter, a speciailize, a special spacial quarter, re-tormulized.  Sometimes, very seldomly, I speak directly to Jah, often calling him by the name he would recognize, God.  These times are quite different than what would be regular prayer, for though God hears our cries and pains and offering, it is truly Jah who whispers and intellects even the most downhome street-talk.  To have a conversation with God is to have an ultimate conversation, with Jah you cannot help but be reminded of the friendliness and warmth that is created therin. 

         I have never met a White person who I would allow to name their ghost in front of me, unless of course it had something to do with their real life, or immediate past.  I don't believe that gives anybody the right to claim independence from their past because they have achieved, what might be thought to be, a supernatural state nor a message from a higher power.  These are things we all wish we could look at with an open eye or two.  What gives me the right to say that I'm free from sin?  That the undead have untold secrets they keep from sound ears, that territory passed mentions no alarm, that knowledge kept sacred stays that way because, in actuallity, you really couldn't make a difference.

      Now let me get a little dirty.  Would you (whatever you are) be prepared to die on my cross?  We all have a cross, but because I might mention the size of mine does that make me the blasphemous kind?  When I re-order my statements, I find it impossible to walk through a door without my presence.  Maybe you should watch where your stumblin', severance and the ill-omened rumblin'.  I enjoy watching what I gave to the uh-uh.  Why'm did you wanna?  I curse the mass, and the sapena against me.  Who says born without sin, and with them the undying plead, a venturer, a perfomance arts master, a living man with a deed worth the villiance.  Give me this chance to tell you that this thing happens to the memory, that the seed of original sin is a cheek-kiss away, and what clouds us?

      If you could hear the tempermant of the army which is raised against us, would you not look to the sky and become entrenched in it.  (of course you would).  Simply, she enters the room likely to have the fluency of those who acclaim her.  Pain-stakingly the chorus builds to the voice, for if there were not a chorus, such as these, then for not, a simple intro, indeed.  So, what, here and there, You and Me, desire so very heavy.  And if already the dark stakes upon your shore, do you call this a night with a friend?  How can we not turn this good thing on into the best?  For Shu, still I'd grip my pipe, and we could be as we had been that night.  What makes this so tempting is that, All Our's.  The one night, the sayonnara, the mai nichi, and so on. 

     If I say Touch Me, could you, would you, do you dare to know the patterns on these thumbs, the drastic way in which my prints paw.  Must I admit to the age of pre-dominance.  Viscerilly, do I homynym serrance.  (that's French right?).  And a measure for every measure, a boy who could play over his fingers, is that Him at the gate?  Keep you cool, man.  That's a lifeless fan, that's a dead holy Hi, and I'm not really concerned about burning for eternity, cause I already delt the morbity their famous play-back straight from heaven.

      You couldn't touch this...It's a last request, everywhere you could see me kou-ni ing and dreaming, asking for the privelage, the rumination in an echo causes whose tears to be-little the super-ego.  And On, and On, we could take the Mountain Side.  You could have your-own-title, too.

      The famous one-armed slinger, of course he still keeps these images close.  Who do you do it for?  And exactly why do you do it?  The bathroom mirror, I broke it.  The disc fades reflection and she's wondering if and they and why don't...Can you hear it?  In the Hello?  Especially in that.  She plops down, and hic-ups.

   

         

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"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

Having sat many times in her presence I would like to share a few thoughts on Gangaji here:

Gangaji´s center of gravity is healthy green (and I mean it!). Bright green in fact. Her spiritual intelligence is astonishing. She has the sweetest Bodhisattva heart and she does not hesitate to cut through your bullshit ego stories with ruthless compassion. You cannot lie to her and not be ashamed. Causal emptiness is her domain. In her presence you can taste the sweet nectar of emptiness/freedom for sure. Ramana sends his blessings.

Gangagji embodies a paradox: she is a green Guru (yes, Mr. Cohen, the "sensitive" self can do that!). She reaches out to all of us. Her ashram has no walls.

Her worldview, however, is not very integral. I am painfully aware of that. But blessed we are that a women like Gangaji walks the green world and touches our hearts with her wisdom and compassion.

(Please talk to her, Mr. Wilber. We all long for your integral embrace).

With all my love from Germany,

Anne

 

 

Hi Anne,

could you give some example of how Gangaji is not very integral?


I'd certainly like to see Gangaji interviewed by Bert Parlee. His Adyashanti interviews were excellent. And if she's not 'Integral' then it would be all the more fascinating to see her response to questions on the issue.

Best,
C.

herenow:

Having sat many times in her presence I would like to share a few thoughts on Gangaji here:

Gangaji´s center of gravity is healthy green (and I mean it!). Bright green in fact. Her spiritual intelligence is astonishing. She has the sweetest Bodhisattva heart and she does not hesitate to cut through your bullshit ego stories with ruthless compassion. You cannot lie to her and not be ashamed. Causal emptiness is her domain. In her presence you can taste the sweet nectar of emptiness/freedom for sure. Ramana sends his blessings.

Gangagji embodies a paradox: she is a green Guru (yes, Mr. Cohen, the "sensitive" self can do that!). She reaches out to all of us. Her ashram has no walls.

Her worldview, however, is not very integral. I am painfully aware of that. But blessed we are that a women like Gangaji walks the green world and touches our hearts with her wisdom and compassion.

(Please talk to her, Mr. Wilber. We all long for your integral embrace).

With all my love from Germany,

Anne

I love how you describe Gangaji.    Like Castel, I'd love to hear more about your assessment that Gangaji is not integral.  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'd just like to hear more about why you conclude that - especially since you describe yourself as painfully aware of it.

If she's not integral but "bright green" - great phrasing btw - then all the more intriguing to have Bert or Ken put an integral framework around what she's saying.  Plus I'd love to have her exposed to the integral worldview; if she's not there yet, at healthy green she's pretty close. 

Integral or not, she's someone I'll be doing more work with for sure. 

spiral out,
Arthur

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I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

I have never heard Gangaji refer to anything that resembled an integral worldview (neither implicitly nor explicitly). It just is not there. By transmitting temporary states of causal emptiness she can help us grow and evolve for sure. But the problem is that evolutionary growth (stages) is not part of her conscious framework. And therefore when the state is gone soul and bodymind might be left with a sense of disorientation and fragmentation. Is there no greater, higher, wider truth out there to hold you? Where do the best cartographers of Samsara abide?

Who am I when the state is gone? Which world do I inhabit? Which view do I take? No view at all (green wishful thinking) or an integral view? Which view does Gangaji take? See for yourself.

Be well.

A.

I have never heard Gangaji refer to anything that resembled an integral worldview (neither implicitly nor explicitly). It just is not there. By transmitting temporary states of causal emptiness she can help us grow and evolve for sure. But the problem is that evolutionary growth (stages) is not part of her conscious framework. And therefore when the state is gone soul and bodymind might be left with a sense of disorientation and fragmentation. Is there no greater, higher, wider truth out there to hold you? Where do the best cartographers of Samsara abide?

Who am I when the state is gone? Which world do I inhabit? Which view do I take? No view at all (green wishful thinking) or an integral view? Which view does Gangaji take? See for yourself.

Be well.

A.

I'm not so sure - but I do intend to see for myself (although, again, I don't want to get distracted by the question: Is Gangaji integral? as opposed to something like What truth does Gangaji have to show me?). 

Because this is fresh in my mind, when I went to see Adyashanti today I was very aware that based on what he said and the way he said it, I would without a doubt have labelled him as coming from a perspective of pluralistic relativism - if I hadn't heard the IN dialogs with Bert Parlee.  One of the themes of what he was talking about today was focusing on the fundamental spiritual insight that all is one (manifesting in diversity) - that if you see anything as separate from you, you are dreaming.  And he kept leading people back to that, away from distractions of the mind, etc.  Liz thought he didn't go into integral aspects because it would confuse people, and he had a core message to convey.

Afterwards I was recalling having this kind of impression before - thinking that what Adya said or the way he said it was so green (horror of horrors) - which makes me hesitate to jump to that conclusion with Gangaji.  I feel like the only way to really know is to bring up such things to her directly and see how she responds.  It seems possible to me that if someone said something about, for example, moral development going through stages, egocentric to ethnocentric to worldcentric to kosmocentric she would totally get what they were talking about, would acknowledge the importance of such development, and then direct their attention back to their own consciousness.  (Actually I'd love to hear what she'd say in response to that stage development, coupled with a question about what happens when somebody stuck in an egocentric worldview or value system wakes up to their true nature.)

Or maybe she wouldn't even go there with them - not because she didn't get it, but because they might be using it as a distraction from realization. 

Kinda like when someone saw "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality" on Lama Surya Das's bookshelf, excitedly asked him what he thought of it, and felt crestfallen when LSD responded, "I find it very useful as a doorstop."

All that said, I'm totally open to the possibility that Gangaji is "merely" healthy green...it would be interesting to hear what Bert Parlee might draw out of her though...

spiral out,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn