I really do hate it when it comes down to something like this, but as mcenter has proven himself unwilling to participate in this forum in a respectful and conscientious way, his posting priveleges have been revoked.  For the record, i think the whole "disruptor" thing can be valuable to a community like this, but it can't be disruption for the sake of disruption, as in mcenter's usually-random comments tended to demonstrate.

Anyway, i just thought y'all should know.

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__________________________

Corey W. deVos (dj rekluse)
Brand Manager, Integral Naked
Audio Manager, Integral Institute
Managing Editor, KenWilber.com
__________________________

Hi Corey

I know that's a very difficult decision to make, but the action you took was clearly necessary to protect the wespace and I thank you for that.  I say that with a heavy heart - Liz and I have met mcenter in person and he's very sweet.  There are no hard feelings here, only sadness that it had to come to this.

namaste,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

Thank you Corey...

... for doing what you said you would.  However difficult, it was the better choice.

-MarkD

---

Just enough enlightenment for this time around, please.

Well yes, Corey, banning needed to happen. I don't think you need be too heavy hearted about it. I would have liked it to have happened in a more staged manner, nonetheless, with a suspension, or two, prior to an outright ban. I see this as offering mcenter - or anyone else who crosses the line  - both the sting of exclusion, and an opening to remain.

Cheers,
C.

thx corey

castel, for the record, mcenter had been given the opportunity to remain and participate in a more respectful manner .. but he chose otherwise

arthur .. helene too was a sweet person per (jason?) who had spoken with her and tried to work with her to be more respectful

yes it's sad when it comes to this .. but it was the right decision .. and ultimately it was mcenter's (and helen's) decision

 

I do not agree with all of your conclusions and his banning. Having surveyed many of mcenter's recent posts I saw some phraseology that may be offensive. But we are adults here, are we not?

I shudder to think one would be "turned away." Who do we think we are?

"Who does We think We is?"

Either by merit of his random profundity or the severity of his fragility---I do not consider this a good decision. If we cannot handle mere words (words I happen to find spoken in the sincerest effort towards truth, however odd), how are we to ever handle ourselves? our selves? our Self?

best and blessings,
tim.

---

"identity which is not convulsive ceases to exist" ---breton

Nine Ways Not to Talk about God

"Please, there is not a moment to let waste, this the virtual world and the martyrdom.  I slip from the pass or do I recognize a familiar face and to remember but to meet.  The coldest week in April do I recall yeh the sun indressed more smoothly.  At work, the most infamous art a division between souls a swollen heart and spider-crawl.

A word I do not intend more broadly, so great our cause it simply preserves.  At this we may laugh, an angel in disguise, a goddess on par with modesty, and a break in welcome antedote.  A raised army, a friendly banner, let's make a deal.  A dry throat becomes a harvest for the peg or the picket.  So sally am I that how often the oblivious is scorned turns a cheek in wait."


What does he mean? Do you know?

---

"identity which is not convulsive ceases to exist" ---breton

Nine Ways Not to Talk about God

zneval:

I

Either by merit of his random profundity or the severity of his fragility---I do not consider this a good decision. If we cannot handle mere words (words I happen to find spoken in the sincerest effort towards truth, however odd), how are we to ever handle ourselves? our selves? our Self?

Mcenter completely ignored the roadrules to transformation. We can handle mere words, but must we tolerate them? I think not. I would love to interact with Ryan as an adult but that simply was not available at this time. I sincerely hope he will transcend his current way of being. The seventh circle is always available for us shadow players.

Peace out!

integralboy:

The seventh circle is always available for us shadow players.

Peace out!

Spoken like someone who knows when (and where) to draw outside the lines. 

spirals,
Arthur

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

integralboy, "We can handle mere words, but must we tolerate them? I think not."

The Self is nonjudgmental.

I, for One, think words must be tolerated and we should strive towards absolute tolerance and understanding.

And really, "the roadrules to transformation"? There are rules?

So many paths up the mountain. I shudder to think we block certain paths.

---

"identity which is not convulsive ceases to exist" ---breton

Nine Ways Not to Talk about God

What? I have never seen anyone contribute to my threads....  You can believe what you want, but I'll bring Helen back and is that what you want?  Blank out this e-mail, because I couldn't explain everything, add one more to my number of posts, sent me (yah) to zaadz, isn't this what I wanted? The Darkest Day In M-foibled history, the perfect post?  THE and the a for, un, to, IT's backlash, nothing can be explained by backlash, and a sploch of red, Give me a ticket, no one! Fuck that! you can't explain why I never meant to diss your wife, because I didn't, and one word, paddy-cock, it's a deep dream and maybe I'd rather be laughing my ass-off at the last best coolest bar, at least I thought, me and my woman got banned?  Huh? Give me a chance to explain myself, and I'll just apologize like I was planning to, on the perfect hour at the perfect time, and I'll drop my letters like Satan dropped me, dare Minado desu ka? Did I ask for a job? Did I complain to Ken about my computer? Did I ever, ever tell anyone they shouldn't have done what they did, exactly? Wouldn 't be the first time?  I know you love my ass, so that makes me cry to the best moment in my best friend's life?  I took the HIT for her, and I'll continue to because nothing breaks love but almost.

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"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

THE POST WITH NO REPLY! THey said it couldn't be done, but I'm angry, and maybe I'm not completely sain, but you have to realize people drop jokes they couldn't see, and sometimes we fall down the path of history because we want to, What about the signature? You dare tell me who my teacher waz?   Do You care what I DId? do You imagine what the entire thing looks like?  No I didn't sit there and contemplate eternity for like several hours every-time I posted, but did You, sure?  I'm sure I'm not the only one who posts without talking to Wilber, and who gets diagnosed a schitz, and comes back for more, that's what it means to beast-ban-e-star, even the frothy edge drove me to the edge, WHERE THEY WANT THE CHRIST PUZZLE?  IT's really all about how much you love a dead man.

---

"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

On the green ground a man takes the fall, he hits the ground and leaves his arm-up in vanquish.  Hazy-daze last forenzic report tells this tale: Have effective cromagnum, instant swiftness in His jocular, drammimine system, vanquished q.  Letter lie grounded, with bright blue eye'z he alwayz cryz, retorting to anyone who manages small f-u-c-k.  His profile view indicates s-t-u-c-k, hound astounded quill down-syndrome, nominal sun-dried season, bad greese liquid painted release, distant feet per o-chou, what we call rice-bowl, zoul ramen again, tomato paste not so canned.  Already frock, pamphlet filled whimsical, epitath reads: Gerrange astral reamdy i tori torchi machi.

---

"Ω =∞x∞^∞" - Wayne Teasdale

Hey, Ryan, buddy - I know this is a pissing contest for you, and you're winning.  Whoop!  Whoop! 

Corey: Is Ryan's sudden re-ability to post a glitch, or was the decision reversed for some reason, or what?  Anyway, I know that y'alls don't have much time to muck around in here, so whatever.  I seem to recall you saying that the posting system in Integral Life will be quite different - individuals will have moderator power over threads they start.  Is that right?

Heya, everybody:  This might be a good time to reflect on the possible value - as well as the complexities and subtleties - of engaged forum moderation.  One of my favorite essays of all time is Clay Shirky's brilliant and entertaining treatment of online community dynamics, A Group Is It's Own Worst Enemy.  Here is a highly relevant excerpt:

In the Seventies -- this is a pattern that's shown up on the network over and over again -- in the Seventies, a BBS called Communitree launched, one of the very early dial-up BBSes. This was launched when people didn't own computers, institutions owned computers.

Communitree was founded on the principles of open access and free dialogue. "Communitree" -- the name just says "California in the Seventies." And the notion was, effectively, throw off structure and new and beautiful patterns will arise.

And, indeed, as anyone who has put discussion software into groups that were previously disconnected has seen, that does happen. Incredible things happen. The early days of Echo, the early days of usenet, the early days of Lucasfilms Habitat, over and over again, you see all this incredible upwelling of people who suddenly are connected in ways they weren't before.

And then, as time sets in, difficulties emerge. In this case, one of the difficulties was occasioned by the fact that one of the institutions that got hold of some modems was a high school. And who, in 1978, was hanging out in the room with the computer and the modems in it, but the boys of that high school. And the boys weren't terribly interested in sophisticated adult conversation. They were interested in fart jokes. They were interested in salacious talk. They were interested in running amok and posting four-letter words and nyah-nyah-nyah, all over the bulletin board.

And the adults who had set up Communitree were horrified, and overrun by these students. The place that was founded on open access had too much open access, too much openness. They couldn't defend themselves against their own users. The place that was founded on free speech had too much freedom. They had no way of saying "No, that's not the kind of free speech we meant."

But that was a requirement. In order to defend themselves against being overrun, that was something that they needed to have that they didn't have, and as a result, they simply shut the site down.

Now you could ask whether or not the founders' inability to defend themselves from this onslaught, from being overrun, was a technical or a social problem. Did the software not allow the problem to be solved? Or was it the social configuration of the group that founded it, where they simply couldn't stomach the idea of adding censorship to protect their system. But in a way, it doesn't matter, because technical and social issues are deeply intertwined. There's no way to completely separate them.

What matters is, a group designed this and then was unable, in the context they'd set up, partly a technical and partly a social context, to save it from this attack from within. And attack from within is what matters. Communitree wasn't shut down by people trying to crash or syn-flood the server. It was shut down by people logging in and posting, which is what the system was designed to allow. The technological pattern of normal use and attack were identical at the machine level, so there was no way to specify technologically what should and shouldn't happen. Some of the users wanted the system to continue to exist and to provide a forum for discussion. And other of the users, the high school boys, either didn't care or were actively inimical. And the system provided no way for the former group to defend itself from the latter.

Now, this story has been written many times. It's actually frustrating to see how many times it's been written. You'd hope that at some point that someone would write it down, and they often do, but what then doesn't happen is other people don't read it.

- Clay Shirky, A Group Is It's Own Worst Enemy.

---

I am seeking meaningful work.

bio: http://aqalicious.gaia.com/

I spend most of my "forum time" these days on The Integral Pod: http://pods.gaia.com/ii/

"You've never seen everything." - Bruce Cockburn

adastra--- thanks for sharing that article. I agree with all of its tenents.

but you are insinuating that all of mcenter's posts are on the same level as high-school fart jokes and obscenities, which I simply cannot agree with. (I'm not sure why I keep posting on this subject, but....) I find mcenter's posts to be thought provoking, obscure---poetic, yes. in another post, I translated one of his japanese poems and reflected on what I think he might have meant and it was honestly a great source of insight for me.

if you think mcenter engages in "salacious talk" you would be correct, but this is not his whole story, and I certainly find his odd posts as more than just mindless banter. if anything, it is mindful banter we should strive to understand for ourselves to better understand ourselves.

and to mcenter: I'm sorry i've had to talk about you as some abstract entity or as a "problem to be dealt with" because you certainly neither of these things. please be mindful of the folks you are interacting with here. poke them. stop pushing. i do fear if you keep pushing, many of us on here will push you away, which would be a tragedy for all of us.

and as an aside.... I requested long ago for there to be added a "integral art" section with specific regions for poems, musings, etc. I offer up a few poems from Sri Chinmoy that I feel are applicible for this discussion:

"If you have physical pain, disdain!
If you have vital pain, disdain!
If you have mental pain, disdain!
But if you have psychic pain,
Then try to gain
As much as possible from it."

"The pain of the body is often bearable.
Not so is the pain of the heart."

"The pain of your heart
And the pain of your mind
Can never be the same.
Your mind's indifference to pain
Is the real proof

Your heart's acceptance of pain
Is the real proof.
The difference between heart-pain
And mind-pain is this:
Mind-pain escapes from the body's cage,
Heart-pain lingers in reality's life."


best and blessings,
tim

---

"identity which is not convulsive ceases to exist" ---breton

Nine Ways Not to Talk about God